Why worshipping Yeshua?

Jewish brother:

Gean wants us to believe that God’s word = God in some way so that we can worship God’s word (=Jesus).

The only “proof” he can contrive is that the verb BARA is not used anywhere in Tanakh in reference to God’s word. Gean’s logic is as follows: BARA means creating something from nothing and since BARA isn’t used to describe how the Torah was made (in Proverbs 8) in contrast to the rest of creation where BARA is used, it means that the Torah (God’s word) has always existed. Therefore, we can worship God’s word because it has always existed like God Himself and is therefore equivalent to God for the purpose of worship.

Gean, first of all, you are admitting that the Torah is God’s word. So why don’t you worship the Torah? Would it be ok to worship the Torah? Did Jews ever worship the Torah? Did Moses worship the Torah? Did King David and King Solomon worship the Torah?

But the most important thing to know, Gean, is that there really is no such thing as Hashem creating something from nothing. Because Hashem is infinite, there is nothing apart or separate from Him – He includes everything. The different Hebrew verbs that mean to make and to form – BARA, YATZAR, ASAH, HOLAL – are all METAPHORS meant for the HUMAN PERSPECTIVE only. From Hashem’s perspective nothing comes from nothing and everything is equally open and revealed – darkness to Him is as bright as light (Psalms 139:12 – Even the darkness is not too dark for you
but the night shines as the day; the darkness is even as the light.)

These different verbs are used to describe different levels of hiddenness of Hashem’s hand/presence in any given object/concept/phenomenon from our perspective. So if we say that something comes from nothing – it doesn’t literally mean from nothing because it comes from Hashem Who is the REAL SOMETHING. It’s AS IF it came from nothing because Hashem’s presence is extremely hidden in these things in the sense that THEY APPEAR TO RUN BY THEMSELVES. Besides, the essential meaning of the word BARA is “outside” – it means to bring what was inside to the outside. So by Hashem saying that He BARA (created) the heaven and the earth (Genesis 2:4), it means that what was “inside” Hashem’s mind, He brought it “outside”. But there really is nothing outside of Hashem – not even the Satan and idols – even though from the human perspective THEY APPEAR to be outside of Hashem.

So, Gean, everything comes from Something. Nothing comes from nothing. Rocks don’t literally come from nothing, they come from Something too. The heavens don’t literally come from nothing. They also come from Something. It’s just that it’s much harder for us to connect to Hashem through studying the heavens and earth than it is for us to connect to Him through studying and fulfilling His word.

Let’s use a human as an analogy. It is much harder for us to connect to someone’s personality and soul if the person lacks the ability to speak. Sure we can see his facial expressions and his actions but because he can’t speak, it is very hard for us to get to know him. But through his words, it’s much easier for us to relate to him. But still the person’s words ARE NOT HIM. They can express a very deep part of him, but they can’t express all of him. So much of the person is still hidden and is unable to be expressed in any words.

A person is much more than his spoken or written words. We might love a person’s words, but it would be insane to try to carry on a relationship with his words. We only want a relationship with the person himself. Likewise, we can love God’s words, but it would be a sign of insanity to try to have a relationship with His words. We only want a relationship with the ONE Who spoke those words. As it is true of a human being, Hashem is also infinitely more than His words and can never fully express Himself in any words. We therefore need something else, something even greater than words, to take our relationship with Hashem and with our fellow humans to the next level.

Everything comes from Hashem – even His words. But let’s have a mutual relationship with Hashem and not with His words. To have a worshipful relationship with anything besides Hashem Himself is a sign of insanity.

Gean Guk Jeon:

Brother, i appreciate your thoughtful and intellectual articles. If i gave you an impression that i worship Yeshua rather than God, or Word rather than Hashem Himself, sorry that is not what i meant.

1. I dont bow down to the Bible nor work for the ink but bow down Hashem whose glory and power and amazing works revealed in the Word and i work for Hashem who gave the job description through the Word.

2. If the word of God become everything, why Isaiah 55:10~11 do not say like this; “As the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return to it but become water, earth, and bud ans seed… So is my word that goes out from my mouth and become everything without returning to me. ”

3. All you said about Hashem are words. Your concept of God is made of words. You pray to God through words. Is God wind? Picture? Man? Force? Visible star? Fire? Or mountain? No. I believe that as soon as you believe and meditate on all about Hashem, even in your quiet time of worshipping Hashem, you meet Him through the small voice or words from Him. The Nature SPEAKS the glory of Hashem, our experience SPEAKS to hear the voice of Hashem. When i hear His voice, i cannot help worshipping Hashem. Even in His silence, His silence speaks message.

Jewish Brother:

Gean,
You told me that you worship both together. You worship the Father AND the Son TOGETHER.

  • Yes but 98% Father. Even in time of worshipping Son, I worship Father who gave His Son for me. I worship Father, then He receives it and He shows me He often shares the glory with His Son = Israel and Yeshua.

    Jewish brother says:

     

    “He often shares the glory with His Son = Israel and Yeshua.”

    Then what is wrong with you worshiping any Jew or the entire Jewish people?
    If you think you are Israel since the “brit chadashah” what is wrong with you worshiping yourself?

    Isaiah 6:3 –
    And one called unto another, and said: Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of His glory.”

    The whole earth is full of His glory – He gave His glory to the entire earth. What is wrong with worshiping the earth?

    Jewish brother:

    Gean,

    If an object is worthy of your worship because it shares God’s “glory” then there are plenty of things that have God’s glory and so you must also worship them.

    If an object is worthy of your worship because it it “God’s word” then there are plenty of things that have God’s word and so you must worship them too; for example, a Torah scroll, a NT (according to you), Avraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, and all the prophets, your computer screen when you look at God’s words to name a few.

    Alan, this debate is won by you and i’m lost. I will worship God only who is Abba Shelanu Adonai Echad. This will be the last question because we need to participate in another great articles of Rabbi.

    You said, “what is wrong with you worshiping any Jew or the entire Jewish people?”
    I do because God said So! Genesis 27:29 “Nations shall SERVE you and kingdoms shall bow down to you; you shall be a master over your brothers, and your mother’s sons shall bow down to you. Those who curse you shall be cursed, and those who bless you shall be blessed.” (www.chabad.org) In this verse, SERVE is what? ABAD! The same word which is used in Deuteronomy 11:16 “Beware, lest your heart be misled, and you turn away and WORSHIP strange gods and prostrate yourselves before them.”

    Actually, i really worshiped (Abbadti: Worked, loved, and served) Jews when i was in Israel. When i was in LA, i wanted to serve (worship) the Jews not because they are greater than gentiles but because God said so and becasue Yeshua was from the Jews, and Yeshua said to the gentile Samaritan woman “salvation comes from the Jews” (John 4:22)

    Jewish brother:
    “Yes but 98% Father. ”

    Does it say in Tanakh or NT that worshiping the son 2% of the time is kosher? What if a person wants to do more than 2%? Is it permitted to do 5% or 10%? What if someone wants to do 50%?

Thorny flowers in Jerusalem 예루살렘의 가시 꽃들

 

“As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters.  여자들 중에 내 사랑은 가시나무 가운데 백합화 같구나”  Song of Songs 아가 2:2

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p60511-184748.jpg

 

p60511-185948.jpg“Some sat in darkness and the deepest gloom, prisoners suffering in iron chains, for they had rebelled against the words of God and despised the counsel of the Most High.   So He subjected them to bitter labor, they stumbled, and there was no one to help.  사람이 흑암과 사망의 그늘에 앉으며 곤고와 쇠사슬에 매임은 하나님의 말씀을 거역하며 지존자의 뜻을 멸시함이라  그러므로 그가 고통을 주어 그들의 마음을 겸손하게 하셨으니 그들이 엎드러져도 돕는자가 없었도다 p60511-183358.jpgp60511-175919.jpgp60522-093131.jpg

Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble, and he saved them from their distress.  He brought them out of darkness and the deepest gloom and broke away their chains.  이에 그들이 그 환난중에 여호와께 부르짖으매 그들의 고통에서 구원하시되 흑암과 사망의 그늘에서 인도하여 내시고 그들의 얽어 맨 줄을 끊으셨도다p60522-100245.jpg

Let them give thanks to the Lord for His unfailing love and his wonderful deeds for men  여호와의 인자하심과 인생에게 행하신 기적으로 말미암아 그를 찬송할지로다 ” Psalm 시편 107:10-15 p60523-094553.jpg

 

 

 

Isn’t Jesus a breaker of the Shabbat Law? 예수는 안식일 율법을 깨트린 자가 아닌가?

Q: When Jesus broke the Shabbat in Matthew 12, his logic is like the speedy driver in this parable. 

A man was on his way to watch a football game at his friend’s house. Eager to arrive, he found himself doing 60 mph in a 35 mph zone. Shortly, a police officer pulled him over.“Do you realize that you were speeding?” the police officer asked.  Incensed the man began railing at the officer:

“Have you not heard how a husband sometimes rushes his pregnant wife as she goes into labor? Or are you so ignorant that you do not know that a fire truck breaks the speed limit and its driver receives no ticket? I tell you that I am greater than the fire chief! But if you had known that a warning is preferable to a ticket, you would not have harassed an innocent man. For I am lord of the roads!”

As the man was arrested, one could hear him shouting: “Speed limits were made for man, not man for speed limits!”

face icon Shalom, You compared Yeshua to the speeder who violated the traffic law, but I see it differently. Please look carefully how the text says; it was His disciples who broke the law, not Yeshua! Matthew 12:1-8 “At that time Yeshua went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. HIS DISCIPLES were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! YOUR DISCIPLES are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath…. ”

The text says the disciples were the speeder. Also, it was not Yeshua who was condemned by the Pharisees but the disciples were criticized! Yeshua never said “i didn’t break the law,” or “my disciples didn’t break the law.” Yeshua simply said that David and his men did something unlawful, and the priests can work on Sabbath in the temple without breaking the law. In my opinion, Yeshua seems to admit that His disciples broke the Sabbath law. Then, why He defends His disciples with these two biblical narratives? My friend, the Gospels is as profound as the Tanakh. We must think hard prayerfully to grasp the message. We will be surprised to see how mysteriously Hashem governed the accidents of the Jewish people to connect with the events of the Messiah.
According to Samuel 21, the priest Ahimelech gave David the bread of the Presence which was just replaced by hot bread on the Sabbath day and allowed them to eat it, So David and his men ate it. LIkewise, Yeshua allowed his disciples to eat it on the Sabbath day. Now, read carefully; the priest Ahimelech did not give the bread right away without considering the law of Leviticus 24:5-9. He said something conditoinally, “… provided the men have kept themselves from women…”(1 Sam.21:4). What in the world this idea came from? I don’t see such things in the Law! Ahimelech made it up? The Satan put his words into the mouth of the priest? NO. He must have received the “unique divine revelation” about the priestly consumption of the consecrated bread. I want to call it “progressive revelation.” THREE TIMES, the Word of God emphasizes in “1 Samuel 22:10, 13, 15” that the priest Ahimelech INQUIRED OF THE LORD for David. It means that the priest asked about this complex situation, and the Lord who is the Lord of the Law revealed HIS heart to the priest so that he would give the bread to David! We see a same situation in Numbers 9:8 when Moses asked the Lord about the unexpected situation when people couldn’t keep the passover at the 14th day of the first month, the Lord gave them extra “make-up” day. OUR God is a REASONABLE God! Don’t confine HIS love, authority, and freedom to work for His beloved ones to the technicalities of the letters of the law!
The Gospel of Matthew portrays Yeshua as the priest Ahimelech who asked and received the direct revelation from Hashem to allow eating on that day. Later, in 1Samuel 22, the priest Ahimelech got killed by Doeg the Edomite. What is significance of this? Look, Saul and his men represent Jews- the first born son of God- the first ordained king, and David and his men represent- the younger brother- church- secondly ordained king. Interestingly, just as the priest got killed by Edomite’s hand not by Saul’s hands, Yeshua was killed by Edomites-gentiles-Roman soldiers, not by Jews (Saul). Then, who is responsible for the death of the priest Ahimelech? Saul or Doeg? David says in 1 Sam.22:22, “That day, when Doeg the Edomite was there, I knew he would be sure to tell Saul. I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR the death of your father’s whole family.”(v.22)
David is reponsible for the death of the priest. Who is David representing? First, speaking of the flesh, David represents today’s Jewish people, the descendants under the line of Judah (Or you may include the descendants of Benjamin, the Saul’s tribe). Secondly, speaking of the spirit, David symbolizes the Disciples- Christians- the church. The righteous Priest Yeshua died for both Jews and Christians when we were still sinners in breaking the Law of God. On the Sabbath day 2000 years ago, Yeshua worked in the grainfield temple to mediate between Hashem and us without breaking the law. He did not rest for our sake and later paid our penalties and rose again from the dead to justify us.
“For Zion’s sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.”—- Isaiah 62:1
  • Q: Gean Guk Geon,
    You could make anything like this up and see “deep insight” into the drivel of anyone you choose to deify – there is no limit to the stretch of human imagination. It helps however to have a little knowledge of Torah Law before you start speculating – Leviticus 15:18 and 22:3 would have given you less room to imagine.
    Language is only useful insofar that people understand it – The words of Jesus are understood by countless people to read just as the words of the speeder in our parable and they were understood this way by the people he was talking to – if it takes 2000 years for someone to cook up an explanation – then its not language – its desperation

    face icon Thanks Rabbi for the scriptural references. It helps me understand why the priest Ahimelech mentioned bodily cleanness of David’s men. Nevertheless, I have questions: according to Leviticus22, only descendants of Aaron were to eat the consecrated bread, then why David and his men? Secondly, why 1Samuel 22 records three times “Ahimelech inquired of the Lord for David.” What is connection between the priest’s provision of the bread through breaking of the Law and the priest’s inquiring of the Lord? Did the priest hear a voice from God in his spirit and uphold a higher law of love than ceremonial law?(Lev.19:18)
    Q: Gean Guk Jeon

    David ate from the bread because it was a situation of life and death – the ritual Law is a law of love – there are no two laws. And if you noticed in chapter 21 it says nothing about asking of God – it is only in chapter 22 where it is mentioned – asking of God was the role of a person in a position of leadership (Numbers 27:21) for the priest to participate in this action on behalf of a rebel would be an act of rebellion – that is why it comes in th

    face icon I like it my friend, “the ritual law is a law of love- there are no two laws.”^^

    Interestingly, i see it in the words of Paul, “For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” Galatians 5:14

    Q: Gean,

     Did anybody get divine revelation to tell them that when david was given the bread it was hunger that motivated him to take it ? what would be the point of using a text which does not explicitly say hunger was the motivation when jesus’ real intention is to say that he can tell his disciples to break the law because “lord of the sabbath” ?
    we don’t know the motives of david in 1 sam 21 for taking the bread , but motives of jesus are clear.
    face icon
  • What do you think David’s motive of asking for something to eat in his running away for days? i think even secular people could read the text and answer. Do you think Yeshua led His disciples into the grainfield in order to teach and practice “breaking of the law?” Even secular people could read the text and see that the disciples acted recklessly and their teacher defended them because they were condemned.

    Q:Gean,

    “Do you think Yeshua led His disciples into the grainfield in order to teach and practice “breaking of the law?” Even secular people could read the text and see that the disciples acted recklessly and their teacher defended them because they were condemned.”

    1. i can’t see where 1 samuel says that david entered the house of god
    2. i can’t see that hunger was motivation for taking the bread. it could have been for later consumption

    quote:
    lawrence wills, ‘mark’ , in levine and brettler (eds.), the jewish annotated new testament , pp .55-95. mccarter (1 samuel , p. 349) also assumed that david and his men are to eat of it, though he does not specify whether THEY ARE HUNGRY AT THE MOMENT or whether they will eat it ONCE they do become hungry.
    end quote

    yeshua gives his INTENTION for allowing his disciples to break the sabbath
    mark is a text written for christians to allow them to break the sabbath.
    think about how christians would have interpreted the words “lord of the sabbath”

    jesus uses the unclear motives of david to justify his clear motivation :

    “the sabbath was made for man… son of man is even lord of the sabbath”

    The verses in Genesis seem to be saying that sabbath is holy because it is a holy day which god built into the cosmos.

    sacred
    special

    i don’t think author of samuel thought that sabbath was BUILt for man like jesus assumed.

    the writers of the christian texts were clearly down grading jewish holy days .

    face icon That’s right, brother. Also, we must remember human notion of “rest from work” is different from divine notion of “rest form work.” in Genesis 2:3. The human work is doing and making stuff with our body moving. But the divine work is “blessing and speaking!” which happened during the first six days. If human rest means stop doing and making stuff, then, the divine rest is stop blessing and being quiet? NO. The divine rest is STILL “blessing and sanctifying.- Gen.2:3” The Sabbath day rule has two meaning. Not doing work as the Mosaic Law teaches & Doing blessing and sanctifying work as God did. I believe Yeshua did not work on the grainfield to keep the Law & blessed and sanctified both disciples and Pharisees.

    Q: Gean Guk Jeon,

  • “If human rest means stop doing and making stuff, then, the divine rest is stop blessing and being quiet? NO. ”

    the divine command according to the bible is:

    8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

    10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

    11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    so God built the 7th day and blessed it.

    the writer of mark writing later does not seem to pick up on this and has degraded the command.

    “sabbath is made for man not man for sabbath…”

    “The divine rest is STILL “blessing and sanctifying.- Gen.2:3” The Sabbath day rule has two meaning. Not doing work as the Mosaic Law teaches & Doing blessing and sanctifying work as God did. ”

    2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

    i don’t know what you are saying. are you saying that god as a human being is not doing work but at the same time blessing the work of his disciples on sabbath day?

  • Q: Gean Guk Jeon,
     
    You are right to note that it was Jesus’ disciples that broke the law. On the other hand, one must wonder why their teacher stands there allowing them to break the law. However, when I wrote the parable, I was more concerned with the arguments Jesus makes rather than who was ‘driving the car’. The point is to examine the arguments and see if they make any sense. And they do not.
  • You say that Jesus is not attempting to defend his disciples. On this I must say that you are quite mistaken. If he were not defending his disciples, the whole speech would make even less sense than it does. He could have just accepted the chastisement without castigating the Pharisees and certainly without the circumlocution upon which he embarks. Moreover, he tells the Pharisees that if they understood that God desires mercy and not sacrifice, they would not have condemned the guiltless. He is clearly excusing his disciples violation of the Sabbath.
  • The arguments he makes to justify his disciples, as reflected in the parable, are illegitimate. First, he compares their situation to the emergency situation in which David found himself, but the disciples are not in an emergency. Then he compares the violation with the Sabbath to the duties of the priests that would under other circumstances violate the Sabbath, but the disciples are not fulfilling a Torah obligation in violating the Sabbath. In fact, when he says that the “priests in the temple violate the Sabbath,” he is incorrect, and his argument is absurd. After this he attacks the Pharisees for condemning the guiltless. And he concludes by declaring himself Lord of the Sabbath. Each of these arguments is troubling, as reflected in my parable.
  • The problem one has when reading the NT is that the NT already sets up Jesus as a noble soul. When Jesus makes grandiose statements people tolerate them, because they have already come to accept that Jesus has a right to say them. However, let them hear these same words come out of the mouth of another, and they would be horrified. They would not testify that such a man is a noble soul. They might think him insane. They might think him evil. But they would not think him a prophet, messiah, or divine.
    face icon   i am sorry for the confusing, when i said “then why He defends His disciples with these two biblical narratives?” i meant He defended His disciples. If you are saying “Emergency” or “other circumstances” you may seem to be adding to the Torah. And let us be clear: Pharisees attacked and Yeshua defended. not vice versa.
    Q: Gean Guk Jeon,

    Regarding the emergency, I am referring to the faulty argument of Jesus. David was fleeing for his life when he took the showbread–an emergency. The disciples were in no such emergency. The “other circumstances” also refers to what Jesus says about the priests.

    Regarding who attacked whom: the Pharisees only pointed out what was true, that Jesus’ disciples were violating the Sabbath. This is not an attack, any more than a police officer issuing a ticket is an attack. However, Jesus railed at the Pharisees, attacking their character. And in fact, Jesus slanders the Pharisees quite regularly; this is not a one time event.

     

    face icon  Thank you for your response.
    I guess a phrase like “What they do is unlawful” would mean much more serious then than now. Neverthless, i thank my Pharisees in those times because Yeshua revealed lots of truth in convesating and arguing(?) with the Pharisees. I believe they were the agents and tools Hashem used to teach humanity the truth.

    Q: Gean Guk Jeon,

    I have been trying to understand your comment: “I guess a phrase like “What they do is unlawful” would mean much more serious then than now.” I take it to mean that you read such a comment as an attack. I am going to respond to the comment that way. If, however, I have misunderstood, please forgive my mistake.

    The reason I do not consider “What they do is unlawful” to be an attack, is because generally speaking, I do not consider it an attack when one accuses someone of a wrong they are doing openly. In fact, we might say that the Pharisees were actually doing a real good to Jesus and the disciples. After all, if you were breaking the law, would you wish someone to just stand by and allow you to continue breaking it? We might feel that way, but we know it is not to our benefit.

    Consider the mission of Ezekiel (3:16-21). He was sent to reprove sinners. And God says that if Ezekiel does not warn those of whom God says that they shall surely die, then Ezekiel will have incurred bloodguilt if they continue in their wrongdoing. But if he warns them and they ignore him, he will have saved his own life, even though they die. Moreover, he is to warn the righteous not to sin, with similar results.

    Would we say that when Ezekiel tells people that they are doing wrong, would we consider this an attack? I would not. Though they might not wish to hear what he has to say, he is really performing for them a good.

    And I would say that similarly, with the Pharisees, when they see the disciples violating the Sabbath, and they tell their master, this is not an attack. Obviously Jesus received it as an attack, but that does not make it one. Breaking the Sabbath is quite an offense, and the Pharisees ought to warn them that they are violating it. Sabbath is a deep bond between the Creator and Israel. One puts himself outside the covenant by taking it lightly. Rather than attacking Jesus and the disciples, the Pharisees have done them a great good. And they are repaid with evil for their efforts.

    Now Christians often see Jesus as one reproving the Pharisees and the Jews in general for their own benefit. Yet, his ‘rebukes’ I would call attacks. Let us consider the language he uses, and I think you will see why I call on rebuke an attack and another I do not. In Matthew 23, we see exactly how abusive Jesus could be. In verse 15 he calls the scribes and Pharisees children of hell. In verse 17, he calls them blind fools (in violation of his own teaching. See Matthew 5:22). In verse 33 he calls them “snakes” and “brood of vipers”. In verse 35 he holds them responsible for the death of Abel, who predated the Jewish people by over a thousand years. Actually, he is holding them responsible for the deaths of all the righteous within Tanach. Jesus is using quite hateful language, and he is attributing to the Pharisees sins with which they obviously could have had no involvement. This is what I would call an attack.

    I would ask you to compare the accusation of the Pharisees, which was true, that what the disciples did was unlawful. Compared to what Jesus says in Matthew 23, it is incredibly mild. So, I do see their accusation as serious. But I cannot see it as an attack. I hope this clarifies my comments.

    face icon  Jim, Thank you for your clarification. I understand your argument, and your logic seems to advocate what Yeshua did. I think as Ezekiel did good by warning and reproving sinners, Yeshua did good by correcting and reproving the condemnation of the Pharisees toward the fellow Jews, the disciples. The condemnation of the innocent is sin according to the Tenth Commandment, right? They condemned, based on their traditional regulations and extra-laws, not based on the spirit and contents of the Torah. I wonder why the word “Pharisees” does not even appear in Tanakh while “Yeshua,” “Messiah” and “disciples” appear in both Old and New Testaments. If our God condemns us when we eat some grains because of the hunger in a manner of eating fast food on Shabbath, we make God unreasonable god. Why Hashem by His providence led His people into the grainfield where HE fattened the grains by sending sunshines and rains and nutritions on soil? He would rather feed the hungry than suffering from the hunger to keep the Shabbat.

    All the prophet’s harsh languages from God to His people are spoken out of genuine love for them, not out of hatred. So were the languages of Yeshua.
    Yeshua did not mean “All Pharisees and Scribes are children of hell.” in Mt.23. “Those Pharisees and Scribes who are hypocrites” are children of hell. (Mt 23:13, 15, 23, 25, 27, 29, )
    Yeshua clarified for us how to discern what is really wrong with them– “The scribes and the Pharisees are seated in the chair of Moses.Therefore do whatever they tell you, and observe it. But don’t do what they do, because they don’t practice what they teach.” (Mt.23:2-3)

    Q: Gean Guk Jeon,

    I see that you have changed your mind. At first, you admitted that the disciples broke the Sabbath, but your assertion was that only they had done so and not Jesus. Now, as you call them innocent, you seem to say that they were not breaking the Sabbath. But of course, though Jesus calls them innocent, it is obvious from his arguments that they were not.

    Please note that Jesus does not say that they never broke the Sabbath. He does not say that the Pharisees have invented restrictions that did not exist. Instead, he attempts to justify their behavior by likening it to the emergency situation of David and then to a priestly action performed on the Sabbath. Reread my parable to understand why these objections are false. These incoherent arguments of his would not be necessary if no law was being broken.

    Hunger is not justification to break the Sabbath. The laws of God are not governed by our appetites; rather our appetites are to be governed by God’s law. The Jewish people have a covenant with God to observe and guard his Sabbaths. They are to be prepared for it. Recall how in the desert, God did not provide manna on the Sabbath, and the manna of the previous day was to be prepared ahead of time. The Sabbath is a weekly event, not one that comes upon one unawares. The disciples should have been prepared. And if they got to feeling hungry, then they could wait until they reached their destination. They could not be travelling terribly far; it was the Sabbath after all.

    Surely you have had to bear up under hunger before. It is not a major inconvenience. The disciples were not starving. They were merely hungry. I have known Christians to fast for a day, enduring hunger for what they considered a greater good. The disciples were not being asked even to do that.

    The Sabbath is a day in which the Jew acknowledges God as Master and Creator of the world. The ‘work’ from which the Jew abstains is not necessarily labor intensive. It is creative. The Jew, by abstaining from ‘work,’ proclaims that he is not the master of the world and that he relies upon God. It is not a day to be taken lightly. When the disciples place their hunger above this message, they are not properly acknowledging God as their Master. They treat their own desire as more important than guarding the Sabbath. Perhaps it would be better to say that they treat the Sabbath carelessly.

    The disciples were not innocent. If they had been, Jesus would not need to resort to such strange circumlocution to justify them. Though the offense might seem light, it still needed correcting. The Pharisees did that without maligning Jesus or his disciples. They did not call them “sons of the devil” or “vipers”. They did not accuse the disciples of being guilty of the “blood of Abel” or Zechariah ben Berachiah (a prophet who was not killed by the way). For their troubles, however, they were maligned. Jesus’ response to this incident was incoherent and self-aggrandizing. It showed also that, though he did not mind publicly humiliating his opponents and heaping invective upon their heads in the name of correction, he could not accept much milder correction without ‘flying off the handle.’

    face icon  Brother Jim, thank you for this very clear and logical response. I did enjoy comprehending your article. You are right; while i was writing, i was a little suspicious of my position on the legitimacy of the disciples’ behavior. And i find that it is because of what Yeshua had said; Yeshua SEEMS to admit that his disciples did something unlawful as David and his men did- ” He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was NOT LAWFUL for them to do, but only for the priests.”(v.5)

    Yeshua also seems to say both priests who work in the temple on Sabbath day and his disciples(seemingly) break the Sabbath.- ” haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple DESECRATE the Sabbath and yet are innocent?”(v.5) So, comparing priests, David, and his men with his disciples gives us impression that they all broke the Sabbath, but when He called them “innocent,” he seems to say that they did not break it. This seems to be self-contradictory but here comes a very important theological issue we must ask.

    I think this is what Yeshua has meant in his defensive argument (by the way, He did not say ‘vipers’ in this situation). WHAT is Sin? What was Yeshua’s definition of “Sin?” We normally think that sin is to break the law of God; Right in the moment when we begin to fail to observe it, the sin comes in. For example, when David and his men brought the sacred bread out of the temple, sin did not happen; when they bite and swallowed it, committing of sin happened. Sin is action. Of course it is action, but the Bible has much more to teach about sin. James 1:15 says, “Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death” Just as a fetus is conceived, lust and desire in us is conceived. then, it gradually BECOMES a baby. The desire gradually becomes sin. As we don’t CREATE or MAKE a baby in us, we don’t do or make sin but Sin becomes a part of our body. Therefore, sin is not so much action as condition.

    I think sin came in Genesis 3:8 (condition; broken relationship and seperateness between God and man), not 3:6 (action; violating the law of God). Thus the salvation from sin means to be united with God because sin seperates us from God. Repentance means turning back to God. So, Matthew 1:21-23 says “She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Yeshua because he will save his people from their sins.” Then, it is followed by the fulfillment of Isaiah prophecy of “IMMANUEL; God with us” Giving birth to Yeshua means transforming the condition of sin which was given birth to by our desires. David and his men broke the law but did not sin because God was there in the temple, with the priest, divine presence was there by דבר -Word when He was inquired of by the priest Ahimelech. Priests who serve in the temple on Shabbath break the technicality of the letters of the law but do not sin because of God’s presence with them and their loyalty and love for God.

    IN the same way, Yeshua, in whom God put His presence, was with his disciples, so he can declare they are innocent even though they did something unlawful. Now, because Yeshua was also with the Pharisees and had intimate conversations about the truth with them, they are also innocent! Yeshua did not condmn anyone as He said, “i came not to condemn but to save.” That’s why Mt 12:6 says Yeshua brings God’s presence like temple that heals all borken and seperated relationship by sin ” But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.” IN The grainfield, the expanded room of God and men, there cannot be condemnation because there was God’s presence.

    So, God is consuming fire (Deuteronomy 4:24, Hebrews 12:29) that consumes all sins. Psalm 16:11 says “Thous will show me the path of life: in THY PRESENCE is fulness of joy; at the Right HAND there are pleasures for evermore.”
    JOb 26:6 “Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.”
    You are right, brother, in saying that “The laws of God are not governed by our appetites; rather our appetites are to be governed by God’s law” Amen. The salvation of God is not governed by our action; rather He saves and heals whomever He chooses to be with.

    Q: Gean,

    just jumping in here to comment on your last sentence: “The salvation of God is not governed by our action; rather He saves and heals whomever He chooses to be with.”

    This flatly contradicts God’s own teachings, that we are supremely in command of our spiritual destiny through our actions. See Genesis 4:7; Deuteronomy 30: 11-14, 19-20; Ezekiel Chapters 18 and 33. Also Psalms 145:18.

     

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    Sister, thank your for jumping in. I also see that the word of God teaches the critical role of our action and right response to the commandments of God. But, if the salvation of God is governed by our action and by what we have accomplished by obeying it, then… so many Jews and Chrisitans in the Old and New covenant may lose the salvation because they sometimes fail to observe it. I don’t mean we can ignore the law; rather we should strive to keep it, to keep the spirit and heart of God manifested in the Law; however, our keeping the law cannot be the basis of our salvation. Salvation belongs to God, not us.
    “Truly my soul waiteth upon God: FROM HIM cometh my salvation. HE ONLY is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved.” (Psalm 62:1-2)
    Who HE is and What HE has done for us is the basis of our salvation!
    “The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” (Psalm 14:2-3; 53:2-3; Romans 3:9)
    We are saved by GRACE and MERCY of God in HIS Covenant — Psalm 89: 26-37, Ephesians 2:8-9)
    WE are saved by what HE has done for us, not by what we have done for Him. So, God’s salvation and God’s righteousness is fulfilled in what God has done in Yeshua- Isn’t it what Isaiah 46:13 are referrring to?
    Let us listen to the conversation between Moses and the Lord (Exodus 33:12-23), especially verse 19– ” And he said, I will make all MY GOODNESS pass before thee, and I will proclaim THE NAME of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.”

    Q: Gean,

  •  I need some time to reply to all of this, but I just want to say something quickly. Why do you believe in God? Psalms 14 says there is no God. See verse one. It says, clear as clear, “There is no God”! What could be plainer than that?
  • Now tell me, what is wrong with what I just did? And then perhaps you can see what you did that is just as wrong.

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You are right, sister, and i think ‘the fool'(v.1) and ‘sons of men'(v.2) makes “all (ha col)… together (Yahedu)”(v.3)? In verse 5 says not “there are righteous people by action worthy of salvation” rather they are saved and righteous because of The Presence and of the Lord with them and being refuge for them. How come? In what way? verse 7 answers that.

Q: Gean
Exodus 33.”He said: “I will let all My goodness pass before you; I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you, and I will favor when I wish to favor, and I will have compassion when I wish to have compassion”.
I wonder, which is the correct reading of 33:19? Is it Who i wish to favor or When I wish to favor ?? Who would match Paul in the NT. It changes the whole meaning.

Q: Gean,

Really, though, who says the salvation is a spiritual salvation? Salvation in the Torah refers to political salvation, salvation from oppression, persecution, and the like.

The concept of God saving us from our own sins without us having to do a thing about it does not exist anywhere in Tanach.

face icon Amen! NT says same thing! The concept has not changed! Salvation is to be with God eternally from the seperation by sin, to inherit the eternal kingdom of God that is Jerusalem, and to become His children forever

Q: Gean,

I do not think you understood what I said at all.

face icon  Jerusalem.., i meant the city where i am living now in Israel. Salvation from slavery, persecution, death, disease, oppression from wicked government are partially realized and fulfilled by the people of God and will ultimately fully fulfilled by Messiah’s coming. He will establish the righteous and holy city of God on earth, thus restore the garden of Eden. This is how i understand from both OT and NT.

Q: Gean,

““The salvation of God is not governed by our action; rather He saves and heals whomever He chooses to be with.” So how does God make that choice? Is it made before you are born? If so, then what criteria is used to condemn a person who God chose not to enlighten and “be with” before their birth?

face icon  Brother, thank you for the comment and forgive me for the late response. please read Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:19-29. I believe that will answer to you

Q: Gean,

Exodus 33:19 In context: 18Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!” 19And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.” 20But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”…

This doesn’t help your argument for Calvinism, predestination or for Jesus as God for that matter. But if it does, there is no reason for you to even be posting here, since God has already made his decision about every single person before they were even born. You say our choices make no difference because our choices are not even our choices. The evil man was created to be evil and the good man was created to be good. You believe those who “reject christ” were predestined to do so. In your thinking , it is God’s will that the vast majority of humanity “reject christ”. You would only have to post once, proclaiming the 2nd person of the trinity and the third person of the trinity would take over from there with “irresistible grace” to those predestined to accept your religion. No further discussion would be needed.

Your continual posting on these boards is evidence that you do not even believe that argument yourself. Remember, Jesus said ( paraphrase), “tell them, and if they do not accept it, shake the dust from your sandals.” He did not say, ” Keep debating them until they see it your way”.

As for your Pauline verse from Romans, it is irrelevant.

Q: Gean,

I think that the calvinistic god is an awful god, but most ignore the fact that many non-testament verses teaches exactly that! You can’t barely make it more clear than “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. “, but like most christians, they try to rationalise, because the god of the non-testament is a cruel god who enjoy sending people to hell, just for his own pleasure of showing his own wrath!

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I don’t care what theologians say, but i do care what the Bible says. Why the nation Israel was chosen among nations? Because He loved and chose them! (Deuteronomy 7:6-9) What i wanted to say is not that we can do whatever we want to do because salvatoin is gained already. The NT also refutes that mentality- Philippians 2:12 says, “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” What i meant was that Salvation of God is not GOVERNED by our action. When the saved people of God stand before Him in the last day, they will know and worship Him because their faith, their works, their righteousness, and their fruits all came from gifts from God. So the Hesed love in His covenant is what saves us. In terms of salvation, God takes all the soverignty- 1 Samuel 17:47, Psalm 3:8, Revelations 7:10

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I also think that the calvinistic god is an awful god. I think the God of Israel, the God of the Bible is an awsome God whose love is infinite!

Q: Gene Buk Geon
“What i meant was that Salvation of God is not GOVERNED by our action”
Dina dealt with that when she joined the conversation. Your response “But, if the salvation of God is governed by our action and by what we have accomplished by obeying it, then… so many Jews and Chrisitans in the Old and New covenant may lose the salvation because they sometimes fail to observe it.” You continue, “I don’t mean we can ignore the law; rather we should strive to keep it, to keep the spirit and heart of God manifested in the Law; however, our keeping the law cannot be the basis of our salvation.” First you say, we cannot ignore the law, Then you say we can, just by keeping the spirit of the law, followed by keeping the law cannot be the basis for our salvation, translation, it’s not that important. By the way Gene, what part of the law do you keep?

face icon I honor and listen and try to keep all the commandments not to be saved but because i am saved. When i find myself failing to observe all those (613?) commandments, i realize i am a sinner who needs mercy of God. i believe i am saved by what God has done in the history of Israel and in the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua.

 

Why Christians venerate the blood of the lamb which they believe has the antoning power, but wasn’t it Egyptian religion? 왜 기독교인들은 양의 피가 속죄의 능력을 지니고 있다면서 고대 이집트인들이 하던 ‘양 숭배’ 종교를 따라하는 거죠?

 

  Q: your assertion that Israel cannot atone for sin without “jesus blood” couldn’t be farther from the truth… Nowhere in the Tanach does it even hint that “jesus blood” is needed for Israel to receive forgiveness of sin from Hashem.  The prophet Daniel stood righteous before Hashem without a Temple. He didn’t need “jesus blood” or jesus in any fashion on order to stand righteous before Hashem.  Ezekiel 14:14 even if these three men–Noah, Daniel and Job–were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD. You see, Daniel received forgiveness for his sins INDEPENDENT of jesus during the first exile. He did this by praying and sincerely repenting before Hashem. Daniel 6:11 states that he even did this in the face of death! Clearly, Daniel knew that his sincere repentance to Hashem brought him back to righteousness.  He was simply following the words of Jeremiah!

  • The context of Jeremiah 29 concerns what G-d expects of us during the exile in order to merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple. Consider what is said in Jeremiah 29:12-14

    Jeremiah 29:12. And you shall call Me and go and pray to Me, and I will hearken to you.

    Jeremiah 29:13. And you will seek Me and find [Me] for you will seek Me with all your heart.

    Jeremiah 29:14. And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.

    G-d expected that the Israelites would pray to Him while in Babylon. The result of their prayers and repentance allowed them to return to the land and rebuild the Holy Temple.

    This is precisely what Daniel did…

    And this is precisely what Orthodox Jews do today! Hosea gives us a similar message:

    Hosea 3:4. For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor seraphim.

    Hosea 3:5. Afterwards shall the children of Israel RETURN, and seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.

    How do we return to Hashem if we do not have any sacrifices? Hosea tells us in Hosea 14:2-3!

    Hosea 14:2. RETURN, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have STUMBLED IN YOUR INIQUITY.

    Clearly, the subject of the next verse explains HOW Israel is supposed to RETURN to Hashem so that OUR INIQUITIES WILL BE FORGIVEN. Of course, the next verse explains just that!

    Hosea 14:3 Take WORDS with yourselves and RETURN TO THE LORD. Say, “YOU SHALL FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY and teach us [the] good [way], and let us render [for] bulls [the offering of] our lips.

    Even though we have stumbled in our iniquity and have been put into exile, we still have a means of returning to Hashem though our sincere PRAYERS. We take our words and return to Hashem by saying; “FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY.” Nothing in Hosea 14:2-3 indicates that we need the blood of animals in order to atone for our sins during the exile. And most importantly, NOTHING in Hosea 14:2-3 says we need the blood of jesus!

    This is why Daniel was able to stand righteous before Hashem, praying three times a day, despite the fact that he knew he would be thrown into a pit of lions if he continued to do so. Yet he continued to do so in the face of death! (Daniel 6:11)

    If the Jewish people did not need “jesus blood” to merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple during the first exile, then why would we need it now?!

    Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. It erroneously claims that “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.”

    Lets take a look at II Chronicles 30:16-20 where it is HEZEKIAH’S PRAYER and NOT BLOOD which ATONES for the sins of the people…

    II Chronicles 30:16. And they stood in their station as was their custom, according to the Torah of Moses, the man of God; the priests sprinkled the blood from the hand of the Levites.

    II Chronicles 30:17. For there were many among the congregation who had not consecrated themselves, and the Levites were in charge of the slaughter of the Passover sacrifices for everyone who was unclean, to make it holy for the Lord.

    II Chronicles 30:18. For a multitude of the people, many from Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun, had not purified themselves, for they ate the Passover sacrifice not as it is written, for **Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, **”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**

    II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”

    II Chronicles 30:20. **And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.**

    The Hebrew word יְכַפֵּר is used in verse 18. It means ATONE! Here we see that in the case of Hezekiah’s passover, many of his Israelite guests DID NOT cleanse themselves with BLOOD according to the Law of Moses. In order to ATONE for the sins of his people, King Hezekiah PRAYED TO HASHEM that he should grant ATONEMENT for all those in his Kingdom who truly turned their hearts to Hashem. 

Now, to further expand on this…In verse 16, it clearly states that the Levites were in charge of sprinkling BLOOD to purify Israel as it is stated in the Torah of Moses…Now, verses 17 and 18 say that there were many in Israel WHO DID NOT PURIFY THEMSELVES WITH THE **BLOOD** AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE TORAH! 

When someone disobeys a Law in the Torah, what do we call that? We call it a SIN! Here, there were individuals who SINNED by NOT being purified by the LEVITICAL PRIESTS OF THE HOLY TEMPLE with BLOOD! Now, according to Hebrews 9:22, the only way to ATONE FOR SIN is through BLOOD! But here, the sin that was committed was that they DIDN’T use blood for atonement…So how is this sin atoned for?

    According to Hebrew 9:22, it has to be blood! But is that how this sin was atoned for? NO! Their sins were atoned for in this manner:

    II Chronicles 30:18 **Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, **”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**

    II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”

    II Chronicles 30:20. **And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.**

    The sin of those not purified with the blood was atoned for through PRAYER!

 Thus, Hebrews 9:22 is an inaccurate statement…

    And if you are still skeptical about atonement without blood, The Hebrew word יִּרְפָּא is used in verse 20 for the word “healed.” The root of this word is רְפָּא which means heal. Amazingly, this same root is used in Isaiah 53:5
    Isaiah 53:5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were **HEALED.**

    The Hebrew word נִרְפָּא is used in verse Isaiah 53:5 for the word “healed.” This shares the SAME ROOT with יִּרְפָּא as shown above. In both cases, (Isaiah 53:5 and II Chronicles 30:20) a form of the word רְפָּא is used for the word “healed.”
    Clearly, there are circumstances in which atonement can be made through PRAYER, particularly when blood sacrifice is not immediately available…

    II Chronicles 33:9-13 demonstrates this same principle:

    II Chronicles 33:9-13: “And Manasseh led Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem astray to do what was evil, more than the nations whom the Lord had destroyed from before the Children of Israel. And the Lord spoke to Manasseh and to his people, but they did not listen. And the Lord brought upon them the generals of the king of Assyria, and they seized Manasseh with hooks and bound him with copper chains and brought him to Babylon. And when he was distressed, he entreated the Lord his God, and he humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers. And he PRAYED to Him, and He accepted his prayer, and He heard his supplication and He restored him to Jerusalem to his kingdom, and Manasseh knew that the Lord was God.”

    Here we see that Manasseh used PRAYER to receive forgiveness of his sins as well. We see that when blood sacrifice is not available, prayer is a valid method of atonement for sin. Also keep in mind that under Manasseh’s rule, the kingdom of Judah was more idolatrous than it had ever been in the past! Clearly, Manasseh’s prayer served as a means of forgiveness/atonement without blood sacrifice and most importantly, without jesus!

    Here we have a cause and effect: King Manasseh says a prayer asking for forgiveness and G-d accepts his prayer and restores him as King of Judah. No blood sacrifice was used to atone for King Manasseh as there is nothing in the text that would indicate such.

    This proves that Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. Blood sacrifice is not the only way to atone for sin. Your jesus has nothing to with our atonement.

    Shalom

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Hebrews 9:21-22
“Moreover, he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vesseles of ministry, and almost all things are BY THE LAW purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission”

To me, this seems not to be a brand new Christian theology of atonement, rather it is an faithful interpretation of the LAW because already Leviticus 17:11 says, “for it is the BLOOD that makes an atonement for the soul”

Of course, the blood itself on the door post has no power, it is just expression of courage, obedience, and faith in God (good reminder, thanks), but one of the reasons why Messianic gentiles believe the blood of the lamb has connection with the afflicted Messiah is based on Isaiah 53:7 “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth, he is brought as a LAMB to thr slaughter and as a SHEEP before her shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth”

I thank my fellow Jews who initiated to slaughter the lamb of God on the cross to make atonement for such a sinful gentile like me. You are truly Priest Nation. 

Q: Gean,

Leviticus 17:11 says, “for it is the BLOOD that makes an atonement for the soul”  Isaiah 53:7 “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth, he is brought as a LAMB to thr slaughter and as a SHEEP before her shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth” but one of the reasons why Messianic gentiles believe the blood of the lamb has connection with the afflicted Messiah is based on

…………….there is no blood atonement in is 53:7
oppression and affliction may cause feeling sorry for the persons, but open wounds and blood pouring out has no atonement in it. no ritual sacrifice in is 53

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Yes, there is no direct mention of “blood atonement” but i am wondering if anyone can say ISAIAH 53 has nothing to do with atonement and blood image:
5. ..He was wounded for our transgression, he was bruised for our iniquities…
6. … the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all…
8. …for the transgression of my people was he stricken…
10. …when thou shalt make his soul (life, blood) an OFFERING FOR SIN (antonement)
11. …. for he shall bear their iniquities
12. … He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressions.

Q: Gean,

The correct translation is “He was pained Because of our rebellious sins and oppressed Through Our iniquities”.

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Ok. Thank you.

Q: Gean,

“10. …when thou shalt make his soul (life, blood) an OFFERING FOR SIN (antonement)”

    • his death, blood, flesh and life is not a ritual sacrifice.
      the only thing verse 10 seems to be saying is that he risked his life , not that he died.
      “my soul is deeply troubled even unto death”
      no death here
      there are other ways to make soul offering for sin without dying

      quote:
      Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.

      Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

      But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.

      seems like the verse you quoted is linked back to the 3 verses i just quoted.

      other translations

      10And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God’s purpose shall prosper in his hand.

      he has to acknowledge his own sin . this translation gives the impression that the servant is a sinner. no animal type of offering can be derived from verse 10.

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      “the only thing verse 10 seems to be saying is that he risked his life, not that he died” ?

      Yes, “risking life” is in this verse but it says “though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering”! ‘guilt offering’ is not half dead or 99% dead, it is “Dead”! Doesn’t the context also say that? “for he was CUT OFF from the land of the LIVING”(v.8) ,
      “with the rich in his DEATH”(v.9)

      you said “he has to acknowledge his own sin” ??
      then how do you understand verse 11 “… by his knowledge my RIGHTEOUS servant will JUSTIFY many”?

      Q: Gean,

      you said, “Yes, “risking life” is in this verse but it says “though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering”! ‘guilt offering’ is not half dead or 99% dead, it is “Dead”!”
      ………………………………………………..
      you are viewing this in light animal sacrifices. you really think a human is a guilt offering? the text does not say that the death = atonement or that the soul /life/whatever died for atonement. it doesn’t even say it died.
      was jesus a sin offering or a guilt offering?

      “Doesn’t the context also say that? “for he was CUT OFF from the land of the LIVING”(v.8) ,”

      assuming “cut off ” means “death” where does it say that its death = atonement for sins? where does it say that it’s death saves/atones?

      “with the rich in his DEATH”(v.9)

      NOTHING about atonement

      …………………………
      you said “he has to acknowledge his own sin” ??
      then how do you understand verse 11 “… by his knowledge my RIGHTEOUS servant will JUSTIFY many”?
      …………………………………………………..
      how come it doesn’t say that the DEATH /offering will justify many?
      why is it knowledge which will save ? why did you capitalize “righteous” ? don’t you know that even righteous noah, daniel and job sinned according to christianity?

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      Yes, the text does not literally say, “his death will atone,” But the natural reading of the chapter leads me that way, i am sorry I can’t deny. However, I understand ‘the atonement through human death
      ‘makes no sense to Judaism. How can a dead man save anybody? I see your frustration.

      But the Biblical and original Christianity does not teach that way. Atonement should be differentiated from salvation. Atonement, as you know, is to come nearer to God, to gain access to the presence of God. So Hebrews 10:19-20″Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jeshua, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body”

      I understand the salvation is eternal life, and Jeshua defined in John 17:3″ Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the ONE true God and Jeshua Messiah, whom you have sent.” So, i understand that salvation is to have holy and intimate fellowship with HaShem and the Messiah forever.

      I think Christianity might have impressed unfortunately that the crucifixion itself saves people, but it is not what the New Testament teaches. His death atones and reconciles sinners, and His resurrection saves and justifies by indwelling of His righteous and holy Spirit in us.

      Romans 4:25″He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.”
      Romans 5:10 ” for if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His LIFE!”

      Salvation does not come by watching and believing crucifixion, rather by living relationship with HaShem and actions with faith in what HaShem has done through Israel, the first born son of God, and Jeshua, the first born Son of God.

      Q: Gean,
      The image of a lamb doesn’t really fit with a messiah. The image is more reflective of the holocaust. What you are reading is a history of the Jewish nation.

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      Yes, you are right. The Messiah should be as Davidic figure who is a king and warrior. Isaiah 53 seems unfit to that. However, The crucifixion is the Messiah’s humbleness and emptying of his power. We see the same character in David’s life.

      New Testament reports that Jeshua actually had the power and authority but he did not use it for the purpose of atoning task on the cross.

      Examples: when Peter struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear , Jeshua said,”Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?” (MT 26:53)

      When the people looked for Jeshua to seize on the Mt. OLIVES, Jeshua asked, “who is it you want?” They replied “Jesus of Nazareth” At the word of Jeshua saying “I AM HE!” They drew back and fell to the ground. (JOHN 18:6) — you remember the SAME thing happened in 1 Samuel 14:13 , right? “Jonathan climbed up, using his hands and feet, with his armor-bearer right behind him. The Philistines fell before Jonathan, and his armor bearer followed and killed behind him.”

      Luke 4:17 reports that Jeshua preached in the synagogue in his home town Nazareth, quoting Isaiah 61:1-2, and he stopped at “to proclaim the year of the Lord’s FAVOR.” and he rolled up the scroll. Why did he omit the next sentence, “and the day of VENGEANCE of our God.”? Because he would fulfill the prophecy of atonement through His death. Then when He will fulfill the Vengeance part? On His second coming! The Revelations 19 prophesy that Jeshua the Messiah will come again as the conquering King, the Lion of Judah and execute the judgement upon all the enemies of God’s people!

      Q: Gean
      To suggest humbleness because of a crucifixion is nothing but a ‘throw out there’ statement. It has no basis in reality. Xtian will say literally anything to make Isaiah 53 work for them. No matter what, the context just doesn’t support the case.

      Q: Gean,
      “Atonement should be differentiated from salvation. Atonement, as you know, is to come nearer to God, to gain access to the presence of God. So Hebrews 10:19-20″Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jeshua, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body”

      why does anybody need jesus’ blood before one speak to god? why need blood from anything? christians say people are going to be burned in hell . shall i watch burning ritual and use it to speak to god? is there a time when no shedding of blood is required and forgiveness is pure and free of blood?

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      Thank you for your reply. I hope there is an open door for us to speak directly to God but unfortunately since Adam sinned and hid himself from God while God searched for him, there has been wall- flaming sword (Gen.3:24) between G_d and us.

      Why HaShem warned and put limits between Him and the Israelites in the Mt. Sinai? Why He required the priests who approached the Lord to consecrate themselves? (Exodus19:21-25) Let us not forget this happened even before the Law was given!

      “But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear”(Isa.59:2-3) My personal life proves this. No one accused me of my secret sins, nevertheless I did not search for God, I did not want to call Him. I know it is because of the sin in me.

      Yes, God can speak to people without requiring blood atonement, actually I think He always does so because He always wants to have relationship with us. But the problem is WE who do not want to come to the Light and talk to Him because we want not our darkness to be disclosed.

      We want to assure that our sins are forgiven but self-assurance cannot make us believe that we are truly forgiven. There is always doubt in us.

      Let’s say, one day a criminal who has been sentenced to death set free and discharged from the prison and sent immediately back to home. Would he enjoy the new life?
      Maybe not. He would search for the evidence or documents that legally prove the dismissal of his case!

      From the infinite mercy and love of our G_D, He provided the “once and for all” legal document sealed with the blood of the Son of G_D so that anybody could come to Him with confidence. G_D INVITES, not require to the table of the atonement so that we enjoy abundant life with Him.

      Q: Gean,

      “Thank you for your reply. I hope there is an open door for us to speak directly to God but unfortunately since Adam sinned and hid himself from God while God searched for him, there has been wall- flaming sword (Gen.3:24) between G_d and us.”

      but i don’t think there is a flaming sword between god and sincerely repentant who sincerely seeks god. if god hears and sees and is close then jesus becomes redundant.

      “Why HaShem warned and put limits between Him and the Israelites in the Mt. Sinai? Why He required the priests who approached the Lord to consecrate themselves? (Exodus19:21-25) Let us not forget this happened even before the Law was given!”

      but i don’t think one require intermediaries to speak to god. if god hears and sees and is kind , then he does not require human blood before he can answer.

      ““But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear”(Isa.59:2-3) My personal life proves this. No one accused me of my secret sins, nevertheless I did not search for God, I did not want to call Him. I know it is because of the sin in me.”

      your personal life does not prove to me that blood is required before god speaks to anyone.

      “Yes, God can speak to people without requiring blood atonement, actually I think He always does so because He always wants to have relationship with us. But the problem is WE who do not want to come to the Light and talk to Him because we want not our darkness to be disclosed.”

      but i do want to talk to the creator and i don’t think a human sacrficial ritual is required before i talk to him. how close or intimate is conversation with god if one has to think of ritual human sacrifice?

      “From the infinite mercy and love of our G_D, He provided the “once and for all” legal document sealed with the blood of the Son of G_D so that anybody could come to Him with confidence.”

      infinite mercy and love of god ? god couldn’t escape from sacrificing himself so where is infinite mercy and love?
      does mercy and love really require a god to come down and do ritual animal sacrifice to himself? if yes, then doesn’t love mean that it is dependant on ritual killing?
      tell me why are sincerely penitent heart cannot speak to god and if god is infinite in mercy and love he can’t answer without ritual killing?
      how close is your relationship with god if one always has to go through “sealed blood document” ? why not god see his own bloodless mercy ?

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      I agree with you that sincerely penitent heart can speak to God and there are cases when God forgave the penitent heart without blood atonement. BUT penitence is enough for us and for God? Would you forgive the IS terrorists and criminals who are responsible for Holocaust when they truly cry and repent? There might be some who ran away from prosecution and enjoyed the rest of their lives and died. Where is the vengence? Where is the justice of God? Brother… Hell is needed!!

      To me it is not psychological, emotional and verbal penitence that renew our heart, it is “paying the price” that really set us free from the bondage. God wants to pay the price to be JUST God and FAITHFUL to keep His words.

      1. “For when you eat of it you will SURELY die” Gen.2:17 Adam died because he did not truly repent?
      2. The Law reveals the justice of God. Repentance is just a small part of qualifications to be forgiven. Isn’t the “Paying the price” the pervasive idea in all the law? LEVITICUS 17:11 “it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life”
      Let us look carefully how the Law says “it is the BLOOD (NOT animal blood) that atones”
      3.Although David poured out his heart, truly repent, fast all day lying on the ground, he had to pay the price; God struck his new born son.(2Sam.12)

      Q: Gean Guk Jeon

      So you think God was making a joke in Ezekiel 33? -and would you be happy if an Isis terrorist or Hitler got away with killing a lamb?

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      I like your passion for the word of God. I hope to learn from you and find the Truth together through our conversations.

      I dont think God was joking. I think you are right in Ezekiel 33 God saves those who repent and do righteousness without blood atonement. But I also think we need to look through briefly the whole Tanakh how God revealed the way of life and salvation.

      In the Garden of Eden, not to eat of the tree of good and evil was the way of life.
      To Cain, to receive the mark from the Lord was the way of life.
      To Noah, to build an ark and enter it was the way of salvation.
      To Lot, to get out of Solomon was the way.
      To Moses who was at a lodging place on the way to Egypt, Zipporah’s cutting off her son’s foreskin and touch Moses’ feet.
      To Hebrews in Egypt, to put the blood of the lamb on the doorpost.
      When got snake bites in the wilderness, to look at the bronze snake on a pole.
      In the land of Israel, to listen and obey the Word of HaShem.
      In the tims of prophets like Ezekiel 33, social justice and obedience to the law.
      In Malachi, bringing the whole tithes and the prophet Elijah turning the hearts of fathers to children and children to fathers.

      God spoke in different manners in different times. We can’t impose Ezekiel 33 as one way of salvation upon all the biblical history. We must hear up to date voice of the Lord.

      Hebrews 1: 1 ” In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whGean Guk Jeon

      Q: Gean,

      There was always one way and that is obedience – to God, not to anyone elseom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe”

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      Amen to that! If I lived in Israel 570 B.C.E. I would listen and obey the Word of God through prophet Jeremiah. If I lived in Israel 30 C.E. I would obey the Word of God through Jeshua, Now I do my best to obey the Revelation of God through 66 books of the Bible. That is why John 1:14 says, “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us…”

      Q: Gean,

      you wrote, “God spoke in different manners in different times. We can’t impose Ezekiel 33 as one way of salvation upon all the biblical history. We must hear up to date voice of the Lord.”

      At this point, 2000 years ago is not very much more up to date than 2500 years ago and so on.

      The first few examples you give are not relevant because they apply to individuals or to a specific national crisis. The last three examples are more general and they apply as much today as they did then. It’s obvious this is so when you read all the examples in context.

      Search the Hebrew Bible and see how many times the phrase “eternal covenant” appears in conjunction with a particular commandment. I think you will find this exercise instructive.

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      Thanks for the comment. When I said, “Up to date” i meant “contemporary” Whatever God says in particular times and places, we must obey.

      I believe that the Old Covenant with Israel is still valid as the New Covenant with church. Yes, since God is eternal and foresees from the beginning into eternity, His words and covenants are eternal.

      Do you mean, because He makes “eternal covenant,” His rule of salvation is eternally same in all the ages and places?

      Q: Hi Gean,

      I’m not sure I understand your question, but I will try to clarify. If God commands something and says it is eternally binding, then what other language would you want God to employ to be more clear? God disagrees with you that His commandments apply only in certain times and places.

      Here’s a relevant example, since we’re in the midst of celebrating Passover. God commands the Jews to keep this holiday, to eat matzos, and not to eat leavened bread. In this passage from Exodus 12:14-20, God uses the terms “eternal decree” twice, “for your generations” once, and “that soul shall be cut off from Israel [regarding one who eats leavened bread]” twice.

      In the passage in Exodus 13:3-10, the term “from year to year” is not given an expiration date.

      God could not be more clear that He expects us to observe Passover every year, forever, eating matzos and refraining from eating leavened bread.

      The clear teachings of the Torah are eternal and apply to every time and place that we find ourselves in.

      I hope this helps!

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      Shalom sister,  Sorry for the late response. Your argument really helped my understanding of the concept of “eternal covenant.” I put my new thought and discovery about this issue on my blog because it is too long to post here. I humbly invite you to see it on my blog.
      The title is “The progressive revelation of passover” under the category of “the mysteries of Israel in the Bible” you are more than welcomed to comment. Thanks.

      Q:Hi Gean,

      I limit myself to one blog of this sort because of my time constraints. May I trouble you to summarize your main points here?

      In the meantime, I must reiterate that the word “eternal” as in “eternal covenant” and “eternal decree” means just that. God could not be more clear. He also made it clear that He does not change His mind regarding His promises (Numbers 23:19).

      I would encourage you as well to study Deuteronomy 4 and 13, which teach, respectively, that we must never associate God with a physical form and that if a prophet produces a sign and then teaches a new type of worship unknown to our fathers, then we must reject him as utterly false.

      Christians associate God with a physical form, Jesus. Furthermore, Jesus taught a new type of worship that was unknown to our fathers. What more need be said?

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      Jeremiah 14:20ff says,” O Lord, we acknowledge our wickedness and the guilt of our fathers; we have indeed sinned against you… Remember your Covenant with us and do not break it…”
      15:1 ” Then the Lord said to me.
      “Even if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me, my heart would not go out to this people…”

      I am a type of PROPHET Jonah. I can’t understand why God forgave such a wicked nation as Assyria when they repent? The penalty of cruel peeling off human skins for long years just vanish away when they repent?

      I would not believe or follow the unjust God of Israel unless HE said ” I poured out THE wrath upon my Son on the cross.”

      Q: Gean Guk Jeon

      Jonah KNEW that God is a merciful God and that he will forgive

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      Yes, you’re right. He knew that. But the question is why he would rather die than go to Nineveh? What do you think?

      God could have raised up a Gentile spiritist or religious priest to declare the simple message- “Nineveh will fall down in 40 days” and make the citizens repent and be saved from the calamity. Nothing is impossible with our HaShem!! Amen?

      But why God had to send him and to put him physically there and to make him walk and preach the message? I think because God knew that the citizens would not repent if they hear from a fellow citizen however serious, religious or passionate he was.

      God had to send His servant from far away, who has blazing eyes, blunt face, and serious voice, like a man who came back to life from dead and tell the truth at the expense of his life. Actually Jonah was such a man. So was Jeshua.

      In The book of Jonah, we see God continued to try to kill his servant physically, emotionally, and logically (by sending storm, being thrown into the water, making him preach the provocative message in the dangerous land, sending worm which chew the vine over his head, sending scorching east wind with sun blazing, and talking to him like the God of Israel is on the side of enemy of Israel) in order to save many lives.

      It was the Lord’s will to crush His Son and cause him to suffer to save you and me.

      Crucifixion is not a separate program of atonement apart from repentance. Crucifixion is God running into our Nineveh to MAKE us repent and come back to Him!

      Q: Gean,

      “In The book of Jonah, we see God continued to try to kill his servant physically, emotionally, and logically (by sending storm, being thrown into the water, making him preach the provocative message in the dangerous land, sending worm which chew the vine over his head, sending scorching east wind with sun blazing, and talking to him like the God of Israel is on the side of enemy of Israel) in order to save many lives.”

      did jonah say that one comes to god through the suffering of jonah? did jonah focus attention on himself/did god?

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      Good question. The text doesn’t say that one comes to God through the suffering of Jonah. Neither it says that one comes to God regardless of the suffering of Jonah. We do know that the repentance from iniquities is not free. Somebody has to go and cost time, energy, even life to tell the truth and the coming judgement of God. Ask Moses, ask Jonah, ask Jeremiah, and ask Jeshua.

      Q: Gean,

      “Crucifixion is not a separate program of atonement apart from repentance. Crucifixion is God running into our Nineveh to MAKE us repent and come back to Him!”

      but you tell yourself that your god saved himself and his now enjoying heavenly rewards and is living a peaceful life. doesn’t that effect your repentance? don’t christians after their repentance celebrate in church the resurrection of their god ?
      its like you have to beat up jesus in your mind, then tell yourself he has fully recovered from the beating and then celebrate his recovery . what is the point of this?
      since none of the beating changes a christians sinful nature, why not ask god to forgive without jesus?

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      Sorry for the late response. I hope you had a wonderful Passover. Your words really make me reexamine my spiritual life. Frankly, you are right. i am, as a Messianic gentile, confused whenever i face passover week because there are totally different moods within the week. For example, i force myself to focus on repentance from my sins as i approach the day of Crucifixion, (pre-rejoicing of the resurrection during the suffering week make me feel guilty ^^) and encourage myself to create a joy in me of the resurrection after the Good Friday although there is not much to rejoice in my life circumstance. This is a little awkward practice of my faith every year.

      I have a question. In Deuteronomy 16, there are specific commandments in each feasts: Passover, Festival of Weeks, and Festival of Tabernacles.
      God commands “rejoicing” in the festivals except the Passover. During Passover, God commands “eating the bread of affliction (bitter herb? i don’t know)” Seems to me that the Passover is for remembering affliction? but my question is this; “Isn’t that a season of great joy when Hashem liberated Israelites from slavery? then, why eating bread of affliction?”

      Secondly, 2 Chronicles 30:13-27 tells us that they celebrated the Passover with great joy! and they agreed to extend 7 more days! Praise Adonai Eloheinu! Even though the observing the Passover did not start smoothly at first, God healed and they could not calm down their excitement. I love this… So question is “during the Passover, aren’t they also breaking the law by uncleanness of some tribes, repentance and bitterness and joy mixed together?” I don’t know i just see similarity between this joyful awkwardness of these two group of people^^

      Q: Gean Guk Jones

      Excellent question, All of the holidays are times of joy – the bread of poverty reminds us of the suffering we were saved from – and it also reminds us of the poverty of all creation before the Creator which is joy – not sadness. Joy is recognizing His love and our poverty

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      O.K. thanks for the explanation. i just wondered why then God omit saying “rejoice” in passover, wheras He mentioned in the other feasts.
      Q: Gean,
       In Deuteronomy 15:14 it says “rejoice in your “chag” – the word “chag” is a word used to describe all three holidays

      Q: Gean Guk Jeon,

      Lets take a closer look at II Chronicles 30:16-20 where it is HEZEKIAH’S PRAYER and NOT BLOOD which ATONES for the sins of the people…

      II Chronicles 30:16. And they stood in their station as was their custom, according to the Torah of Moses, the man of God; the priests sprinkled the blood from the hand of the Levites.

      II Chronicles 30:17. For there were many among the congregation who had not consecrated themselves, and the Levites were in charge of the slaughter of the Passover sacrifices for everyone who was unclean, to make it holy for the Lord.

      II Chronicles 30:18. For a multitude of the people, many from Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun, had not purified themselves, for they ate the Passover sacrifice not as it is written, for **Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, **”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**

      II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”

      II Chronicles 30:20. **And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.**

      The Hebrew word יְכַפֵּר is used in verse 18. It means ATONE! Here we see that in the case of Hezekiah’s passover, many of his Israelite guests DID NOT cleanse themselves with BLOOD according to the Law of Moses. In order to ATONE for the sins of his people, King Hezekiah PRAYED TO HASHEM that he should grant ATONEMENT for all those in his Kingdom who truly turned their hearts to Hashem. 

Now, to further expand on this…In verse 16, it clearly states that the Levites were in charge of sprinkling BLOOD to purify Israel as it is stated in the Torah of Moses…Now, verses 17 and 18 say that there were many in Israel WHO DID NOT PURIFY THEMSELVES WITH THE **BLOOD** AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE TORAH! 

When someone disobeys a Law in the Torah, what do we call that? We call it a SIN! Here, there were individuals who SINNED by NOT being purified by the LEVITICAL PRIESTS OF THE HOLY TEMPLE with BLOOD! Now, according to Hebrews 9:22, the only way to ATONE FOR SIN is through BLOOD! But here, the sin that was committed was that they DIDN’T use blood for atonement…So how is this sin atoned for?

      According to Hebrew 9:22, it has to be blood! But is that how this sin was atoned for? NO! Their sins were atoned for in this manner:

      II Chronicles 30:18 **Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, **”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**

      II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”

      II Chronicles 30:20. **And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.**

      The sin of those not purified with the blood was atoned for through PRAYER!

 Thus, Hebrews 9:22 is an inaccurate statement…

      And if you are still skeptical about atonement without blood, The Hebrew word יִּרְפָּא is used in verse 20 for the word “healed.” The root of this word is רְפָּא which means heal. Amazingly, this same root is used in Isaiah 53:5
      Isaiah 53:5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were **HEALED.**

      The Hebrew word נִרְפָּא is used in verse Isaiah 53:5 for the word “healed.” This shares the SAME ROOT with יִּרְפָּא as shown above. In both cases, (Isaiah 53:5 and II Chronicles 30:20) a form of the word רְפָּא is used for the word “healed.”
      Clearly, there are circumstances in which atonement can be made through PRAYER, particularly when blood sacrifice is not immediately available…

      II Chronicles 33:9-13 demonstrates this same principle:

      II Chronicles 33:9-13: “And Manasseh led Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem astray to do what was evil, more than the nations whom the Lord had destroyed from before the Children of Israel. And the Lord spoke to Manasseh and to his people, but they did not listen. And the Lord brought upon them the generals of the king of Assyria, and they seized Manasseh with hooks and bound him with copper chains and brought him to Babylon. And when he was distressed, he entreated the Lord his God, and he humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers. And he PRAYED to Him, and He accepted his prayer, and He heard his supplication and He restored him to Jerusalem to his kingdom, and Manasseh knew that the Lord was God.”

      Here we see that Manasseh used PRAYER to receive forgiveness of his sins as well. We see that when blood sacrifice is not available, prayer is a valid method of atonement for sin. Also keep in mind that under Manasseh’s rule, the kingdom of Judah was more idolatrous than it had ever been in the past! Clearly, Manasseh’s prayer served as a means of forgiveness/atonement without blood sacrifice and most importantly, without jesus!

      Here we have a cause and effect: King Manasseh says a prayer asking for forgiveness and G-d accepts his prayer and restores him as King of Judah. No blood sacrifice was used to atone for King Manasseh as there is nothing in the text that would indicate such.

      This proves that Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. Blood sacrifice is not the only way to atone for sin. Your jesus has nothing to with our atonement.

      Shalom

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      Nice to meet you Yehuda. Thank your for your comment. i see your point and i agree God atones without blood sacrifice. And i want to add, “God also atones with blood” because the Law says so! Leviticus 17:11 !!

      This is my understanding of Hebrews 9:22, “In fact, the Law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood AND without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” This verse is not talking about Christian doctrine of atonement through blood. This is a statement of observation of what the Leviticus 17:11 says within the scope of the whole Torah.

      Let me rephrase it; “NEALY everything is atoned by blood according to the LAW AND there is nearly no forgiveness without the shedding of the blood according to the law ” that is what it says.

      i think you brought good textual supports. Atonement or forgiveness through prayers of two KINGS. Yes, i agree. i want you to know that crucifixion is not all about shedding blood. it is also about shedding water, shedding sweat, bruise, piercing, hanging, woundeness, chastisement, mockering, shame, condemnation… and PRAYER!

      On the cross, Jeshua prayed, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” Luke 23:34

      God forgives and atones through blood according to the Law.
      God heals through his wound according to Isaiah 53.
      God forgives through proclamation of the coming judgment according to Jonah.
      God forgives through prayer according to Hezekiah and Mannasseh.

      Jeshua did all of them on the crucifixion. (Jeshua’s proclamation of coming disaster is found in Luke 23:30).

A Korean mercenary in Jerusalem 예루살렘의 한국인 용병

Who is a mercenary?  Wikipedia defines,”a mercenary is a person who fights for personal gains of money or other recompense instead of fighting for the ideological interests of a country, whether they be for or against the existing government.”  용병이란?  위키페디아는 이렇게 정의합니다. “현존하는 국가의 이념이나 정치적 입장에 동조하는 것과는 상관없이, 개인적인 보상이나 돈을 위해서 그 국가를 위해 (전쟁에서) 싸워주는 사람을 말한다.”

It was a warm afternoon on Tuesday, May 10, 2016.  I left the library early afternoon to go home and began walking toward the tram station on Ammunition Hill in Jerusalem.  While I was waiting on the stop sign, i suddenly changed my mind to take a bus instead of a tram.  2016년 5월 10일 화요일, 아주 따스한 오후였습니다.  저는 그날 귀가하기위해 도서관에서 오후 일찍 나와 예루살렘의 어뮤니션 힐 전철역을 향해 걷기 시작했습니다.  신호등을 기다리고 서 있는 데, 갑자기 마음이 바뀌어서 전철대신 버스를 타고가야 겠다고 생각했습니다. 12987156_10209879451169491_3598676755699750706_n

So, I turned to the bus station at Ammunition Hill and stood there waiting for the bus 68.  Some time has passed and the bus still did not come, whereas i saw several trams passing by already, so i began to regret of my quick change.  After a few more minutes, a bus was approaching, but it was a bus 66!  “A bus 68 is what i need… ,” I murmured and sighed.  After letting the bus 66 pass,  i waited for another 10 minutes.  I could not bear anymore of the escalating temperature, the smell of air pollutions, and annoying honkings on the street.  I changed my mind again to take a tram.  Blaming myself on all the crossroads, i ended up taking a tram to go home in Pisgat Zeev.   그래서, 어뮤니션 힐에 있는 버스정류장으로 발걸음을 돌려 68번 버스를 기다렸습니다.  시간이 좀 지났는 데도 버스가 오질 않았습니다.  반면에 전철은 벌써 몇대가 지나갔고요.  버스로 바꾼 것을 후회하기 시작했습니다.  몇 분이 더 지나자, 버스 한대가 오는 것이었습니다.  그런데 그건 66번이었습니다!  “내가 지금 필요한 건 68번인데…,” 혼자 중얼거리며 한숨을 쉬었죠.  그 버스를 보낸다음, 한 십분을 더 기다렸습니다.  도로에 빵빵 거리는 경적 소리, 자동차 매연가스 냄세, 더운 날씨.. 더 이상 참을 수가 없어 다시 전철을 타기로 마음을 또 바꿨습니다.  걸어가면서 자책하고, 또 자책하고… 결국 집이 있는 피스갓 즈에브 방향으로 가는 트램을 타게 되었습니다.     12670890_10209860812783543_804633639913997768_n

As always, I got off the tram at Pisgat Zeev Center and walked up the hill and then downhill toward my house at Dov Saddan and Shlomo.   늘 그랬듯이, 피스갓 즈에브 센타에서 내려 언덕 위를 올라가고 다시 도브 싸단과 쉴로모에 있는 집 방향으로 언덕을 내려갔습니다.

I was walking down the street, singing of the beauty of the Judean Wilderness over the hill.  But all of sudden, i heard someone screaming across the street!  The sound was a really urgent shrieking of a guy!  I immediately looked around and found out I was the closest one to him on the street, so I ran toward the Jew like an athlete at sprint zone!   언덕 너머 유대광야의 아름다움을 노래하며 거리를 걷고 있었습니다.  그런데 갑자기, 길 건너편에서 누군가가 비명을 지르더군요!  그 소리는 분명 비상사태에 놓인 남성의 비명소리였습니다!  전 주위를 둘러봤습니다.  그 거리에서는 제가 가장 가까이 있음을 깨닫자 마자, 저는 전력질주하여 그 유대인을 향해 달려갔습니다!

As soon as i approached the guy, O My God!,  his finger was slammed by a car door!   I threw my right arm and grapped and opened the door.  He pulled out and shrank his body, trying to resist the pain spreading out his whole body.  O my God, his finger got deformed and bruised with some blood, and i did not know what to do.  Actually he was scrubbing the front window, leaning from the hood side with his left hand grabbing the edge of the passenger’s door.  Whether it was the strong wind or the steep descent road which shut the passenger’s door, He could not move his body at all with one finger got squeezed !  12974453_10209879357167141_6010005549926296275_nWithin a minute, people on the street started gathering and tried to help him.  Somebody called police and others called somebody, and someone exclaimed, “Baruk Hashem! Thank God!”  그 사람에게 달려가자마자, 오 마이 갓!  그의 손가락이 차 문에 낀 것이었습니다!  전 순간적으로 팔을 뻗어 문을 잡고 확 열어주었습니다.  그는 손을 빼더니 몸을 웅크리고 온 몸에 퍼지는 고통과 싸웠습니다.  오 마이 갓, 그의 손가락은 움푹 패였고, 피가 좀 나면서 시퍼렇게 멍들어 있었습니다.  전 어찌할 바를 몰랐습니다.   사실, 그는 왼 손으로 차의 승객 쪽 문의 샤시를 잡고, 후드 쪽에서 몸을 기울여 앞 창문을 닦고 있었습니다.   강한 바람이 불어서 그랬는 지, 아니면 확 기울어 있었던 도로 때문이었는 지, 문이 다혀버린 후 그의 손가락이 낀 상태에선 몸 하나 까딱할 수 없는 상황이었던 것입니다!  잠시 후, 거리의 사람들이 모이기 시작했고 그를 도와주려 했습니다.  어떤 사람은 경찰을 부르고, 또 다른 사람은 누군가에게 전화하고, 누군가는 “바루크 하솀! 하나님께 감사합니다! ” 하며 소리 지르더군요

As the chaos calmed down, I thought my job was finished.  ” If i linger here, i would be seen as if i was waiting for the rewards or money.  I better go now.”  As soon as i decided to leave after praying for him, they looked at me and seemed to talk about me in Hebrew.  Well, I felt good although i could not understand their compliments(?).  I wrapped my two hands on his hurt finger and prayed for thanksgiving and healing in Korean.  And I left there, saying, “Baruk Hashem, take care of yourself!^^”.  이 정신없는 사태가 진정이 되어가면서 전 제 임무가 이제 끝났다고 생각했습니다. “내가 여기서 더 머뭇거리면 뭔가 돈이나 보상을 바라는 자로 비춰질 수 있겠다, 지금 가는 게 낫겠다.”  그 사람에게 기도해주고 그 자리를 뜨기로 마음 먹자 마자, 사람들이 절 쳐다보고 히브리어로 뭔가 말하는 것 같았습니다.  글쎄요, 그 칭찬(?)을 이해하진 못했어도 기분은 좋더군요.  전 그 분의 다친 손가락을 아래위로 감싸고, 하나님께 감사하며 치유의 기도를 해주었습니다.  그리고  “바루크 하솀, 몸 잘 돌보세요!^^” 말하며 그 자리를 떴습니다.

On the evening of the crazy day, at 8:00 PM,  I heard the siren of Yom Hazikaron, which is Israel’s Memorial Day for the fallen soldiers and victims of terror.  I was drawn to my backyard to meditate on the sound.  Over the fence, I could see all the cars stopped and all the noises of men and vehicles stopped at the very moment.  I thought, “Well, today i was a mercenary who rescued the Jew.  A mercenary who will be paid by Hashem.”   완전 정신없었던 그 날, 저녁 8시에, 욤 하지카론의 싸이렌 소리가 났습니다.  이스라엘의 자유와 독립을 위해 싸운 군인들과 테러 희생자들을 기리는 이스라엘의 ‘군인의 날’ 이었습니다.  저는 그 소리에 이끌려 집마당으로 나갔습니다.  담 넘어보니, 모든 차들이 다 서있는 게 보이더군요.  그  순간에 모든 교통수단과 사람의 소리가 중단되고 조용~ 했습니다.   전 생각했죠, “음.. 오늘 나는 그 유대인을 구출해준 용병이었다.  하나님께 보상받을 용병.”     p60512-225502.jpg

When I saw a pizza delivery guy stopped his motocycle in front of the bus stop and stood still at the siren, I suddenly realized that the bus I should have waited for on that afternoon was not 68, it was 66!!   “Shishim ve Sheshi (Sixty Six)” How often have I heard this sound from the bus stop which is right under my house!  How could I forget it?  How could I miss it?   God began to expose one by one how He had orchestrated everything on the Memorial day.  Yes… I had to let the bus 66 pass because… 버스 정류장 바로 앞에서 피자배달하던 청년이 싸이렌 소리에 오토바이를 멈추고 잠잠히 서 있는 걸 보니, 문득 깨닫게 된 것이 있었습니다.  제가 오늘 탔어야 하는 버스는 68번이 아니라, 66번이었다는 것을요!!  “쉬쉼 베 셰시 (육십 육)”  집 바로 앞에 있는 버스 정류장으로 부터 이 소리를 얼마나  자주 들었는 데… 아니 어떻게 이걸 깜빡할 수 있었을까?  아니 어떻게 이걸 놓칠 수가 있었지?  하나님께선, 그 날 벌어진 모든 사건들을 어떻게 다 주관하셨는 지, 하나하나 보여주시기 시작했습니다.  맞습니다… 전 그 66번 버스를 보냈어야만 했습니다.  왜냐하면…

God is never late, and He is never early either.  He is always on time.  On the very moment when the finger got slammed by the car door.  하나님은 절대 늦지도 않으시고, 일찍 오시는 분도 아니니까요.  그 분은 항상 정시에 옵니다.  자동차 문이 손가락을 찍는 바로 그 순간에 말입니다.  p60414-184439.jpg

 

Is it better to live in the wilderness? Proverbs 21:19 광야에 사는것이 차라리 낳으니라?

“It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman. 

다투며 성내는 여인과 함께 사는 것 보다 광야에서 사는 것이 나으니라”  Proverbs 잠언 21:19              
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Whenever i had a dispute with my wife, i have always wanted to go to the wilderness.
However, there was no “wilderness” where we lived.  There was not in Nashville, in Los Angeles, in Montgomery, in Seoul, in Jeju Island, in Lynchburg, in Jin-Hae, nowhere except in JERUSALEM!!!  O how i long for the day!  One day, i had a big argument with my wife, and the time had come.  So, I went down to the Pisgat Zeev valley that leads to the Judean wilderness.
아내와 다툴때마다, 늘 광야에 가고 싶었습니다.  그러나 우리 부부가 살았던 곳에는 광야가 없었습니다.  내쉬빌에도 없고, 로스 앤젤레스에도, 몽고메리에도, 서울에도, 제주도에도, 린치버그에도, 진해시에도, 아무 데도 광야는 없었죠.  그러나 예루살렘엔 있었습니다!  아…  얼마나 이 날을 기다렸던가요!  어느날, 아내와 크게 논쟁을 하였습니다.  그 때가 온 것입니다.  그래서 저는 유대광야로 연결되는 우리동네 피스갓즈에브의 골짜기로 내려갔습니다.1463399549842.jpg
 I thought the wilderness was a cold area, so i wore a long shirt.  Yet, the more i walked down the path, the more the temperature got hotter.  I thought, “how much more hotter in the wilderness if here is so hot?”   Finally, I found a good flat rocky place to sit down.  “Maybe, David might have sit here three thousand  years ago to escape from the quarrelsome wife, Michal.” I imagined.   I burst out in my prayer, “Abba Elohim, i would rather live alone here!!  I want to hear your anwer! ”  전, 광야는 추운 곳이라 생각해서 긴 팔옷을 입었습니다.  그런데, 더 내려가면 갈수록 온도가 올라가더군요.  아… 이 골짜기도 이렇게 더운데 광야는 얼마나 뜨거울까? 생각했습니다.   결국 평평한 바위에 앉을 지점을 발견했습니다.   “아마 삼천년전에 다윗도, 다투기 좋아하는 아내 미갈을 피해서 이 곳에 와서 앉았을 수도 있겠다…” 상상해보았습니다.   기도하며 소리 질렀습니다. “아버지 하나님, 차라리 여기서 혼자 사는 게 낫겠습니다!!  당신의 대답을 듣고 싶습니다! “
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There was no voice, nor answer.  It was very hot and quiet.  After about 30 minutes, something was moving in front of my eyes.   It was a mountain gazelle !!  아무 소리도, 아무런 대답도 들리지 않았습니다.  그저 뜨겁고 조용하기만 했습니다.  한 삼십분이 지났을까요?  제 눈 앞에서 뭔가가 움직이는 게 포착되었습니다! 광야 사슴이었습니다!!p60426-184443.jpgThey were watching cautiously together at me, so quietly moving together one step at a time, and gently eating together inside of the reeds.  Interestingly, they always stayed together as a couple!  그놈들은 저를 아주 조심히 쳐다보고, 아주 조용히 한발짝, 한 발짝 같이 움직이고, 그 풀 숲안에서 아주 조용히 함께 뭔가를 먹고 있었습니다.   신기하게도, 항상 두 마리씩 짝을 지어 함께 있더군요!

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I got thirsty and dizzy under the sun.  I pondered again and again the  scene of the sophisticated creatures.  And it was as if God was speaking to me, “Speak gently to your wife, move together with her slowly and watch carefully together, you are one…”  The unspeakable joy came to me!   I thought i was able to live again with my wife.  Here is my Conclusion:  “Go into the wilderness and you will come back home.”  How wise our God is! 내리 쬐는 태양아래에서 목이 마르고 어지럽기 시작했습니다.  그 섬세한 피조물들의 장면을 보고 또 보고 묵상했지요.  마치 하나님께서 제게 이렇게 말씀하시는 것 같았습니다.  “아내에게 부드럽게 말하라, 함께  천천히 움직여라, 함께 주의 깊게 보아라, 너희들은 하나이다.”  알 수 없는 기쁨이 찾아 왔습니다!  이제 다시 아내와 살 수 있을 것 같았습니다.  이게 제 결론입니다: “광야로 나가 보세요.  다시 집으로 돌아 올 겁니다.”   우리 하나님 참 지혜로우십니다! p60425-123241.jpg

The ancient city of Jericho 고대 도시 여리고

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My church went to a retreat at Jericho, one of the oldest cities in the world history!  At first, i was a little disappointed because it looked so much like Palm Springs in California.  On the next day while i was visiting the historical sites inside the city, i made an oath that i would never dare to compare it with any other cities.   제가 다니는 교회에서 수련회를 갔답니다.  세계역사에서 가장 오래된 도시들 중의 하나, 여리고로!!  처음 봤을 땐, 캘리포니아 주의 팜 스프링스 도시와 별 다를 게 없는 것 같아서 실망했었습니다.  그런데, 다음 날 그 도시 내의 고대 유적지를 방문하고 나서, 앞으로는 절대 이 도시를 다른 도시와 감히 비교하지 않겠노라고 다짐했습니다.

20160424_114435.jpgSycamore fig tree in Jericho where the tax collector Zacchaeus climbed up to see Yeshua.  세리장 삭개오가 예수님을 보기위해 올라갔다는 돌무화과 나무입니다.

“And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for today I must abide at thy house. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.”  예수께서 그 곳에 이르사 위를 쳐다 보시고 그에게 이르시되, 삭개오야 속히 내려오라 오늘 내가 너의 집에 머물러야겠다 하시니 그가 속히 내려와 즐겁게 그를 영접하거늘  __Luke (누가복음) 19:5-6

Someone told me that after Zacchaeus heard of Yeshua’s intention of stay in his house, he said, “I will Zacchaeo dinner today (Zacchaeo- same sound as Korean dialect which means – i will buy you or serve you)! ^^”   삭개오가 자기 집에 머물겠다는 주님의 말씀을 듣고 이렇게 말했답니다. “오늘은 제가 저녁 삭개요 (살게요)! ^^”

This is a mulberry tree near the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, which should not be confused with a sycamore fig tree. 돌 무화과 나무와 헤깔리지 말아야겠죠?  예루살렘의 히브리대학교 근처에 있는 “뽕나무”입니다. p60508-133429.jpgp60508-133423.jpg

Praise God! I finally stepped on the ground where the wall of Jericho tumbled down by the shouts of Israelites!  할렐루야!  드디어, 이스라엘인들의 외침으로 여리고 성이 무너졌던 그 터에 발을 디디었습니다!1463340435434.jpg

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“So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat…   이에 백성은 외치고 제사장들은 나팔을 불매 백성이 나팔 소리를 들을 때에 크게 소리 질러 외치니 성벽이 무너져 내린지라 …     Joshua 여호수아 6:20

 

I was able to literally see the ancient heaps of stones and dirts of the wall.  The moutain on the back is known for “Mt. Temptaion” where Yeshua was in the midst of Satan’s temptation.  It is a part of Judaen wilderness hills that connect the higher city of Jerusalem to the lower city of Jericho.   그당시 무너졌던 흙과 돌 무더기를 그대로 볼 수 있었습니다.  뒤에 보이는 산은 “시험산”이라고 불리는 데, 예수님이 사탄에게 시험을 받은 곳으로 알려져 있죠.  이 산 자락은 유대 광야의 많은 언덕들의 한 부분으로서, 높이 위치한 예루살렘 도시와 낮은 여리고도시를 연결하는 산 입니다.p60515-114206.jpg

Right in front of the wall, there was a water reservoir which the prophet Elisha purified with salt while he was waiting for his disciples in Jericho. 바로 그 앞에는, 엘리사 선지자가 여리고에서 제자들을 기다리면서 그 성읍의 물을 소금으로 정화시켰던 저수지가 있었습니다.

” He went out to the spring of water and threw salt in it and said, “Thus says the LORD, ‘I have purified these waters; there shall not be from there death or unfruitfulness any longer.’  엘리사가 물 근원으로 나아가서 소금을 그 가운데에 던지며 이르되 여호와의 말씀이 내가 이 물을 고쳤으니 이로부터 다시는 죽음이나 열매 맺지 못함이 없을지니라 하셨느니라 하니”  __2 Kings 열왕기하 2:21

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The water Elish purified tasted as good as the water from the Ein Gedi wilderness!  엘리사가 정화시킨 저수지에서 나오는 물 맛이 엔 게디 광야에서 나오는 물 맛 만큼이나 좋더군요!p60211-143721.jpg20160425_091926