Why Christians venerate the blood of the lamb which they believe has the antoning power, but wasn’t it Egyptian religion? 왜 기독교인들은 양의 피가 속죄의 능력을 지니고 있다면서 고대 이집트인들이 하던 ‘양 숭배’ 종교를 따라하는 거죠?

 

  Q: your assertion that Israel cannot atone for sin without “jesus blood” couldn’t be farther from the truth… Nowhere in the Tanach does it even hint that “jesus blood” is needed for Israel to receive forgiveness of sin from Hashem.  The prophet Daniel stood righteous before Hashem without a Temple. He didn’t need “jesus blood” or jesus in any fashion on order to stand righteous before Hashem.  Ezekiel 14:14 even if these three men–Noah, Daniel and Job–were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD. You see, Daniel received forgiveness for his sins INDEPENDENT of jesus during the first exile. He did this by praying and sincerely repenting before Hashem. Daniel 6:11 states that he even did this in the face of death! Clearly, Daniel knew that his sincere repentance to Hashem brought him back to righteousness.  He was simply following the words of Jeremiah!

  • The context of Jeremiah 29 concerns what G-d expects of us during the exile in order to merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple. Consider what is said in Jeremiah 29:12-14

    Jeremiah 29:12. And you shall call Me and go and pray to Me, and I will hearken to you.

    Jeremiah 29:13. And you will seek Me and find [Me] for you will seek Me with all your heart.

    Jeremiah 29:14. And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.

    G-d expected that the Israelites would pray to Him while in Babylon. The result of their prayers and repentance allowed them to return to the land and rebuild the Holy Temple.

    This is precisely what Daniel did…

    And this is precisely what Orthodox Jews do today! Hosea gives us a similar message:

    Hosea 3:4. For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor seraphim.

    Hosea 3:5. Afterwards shall the children of Israel RETURN, and seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.

    How do we return to Hashem if we do not have any sacrifices? Hosea tells us in Hosea 14:2-3!

    Hosea 14:2. RETURN, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have STUMBLED IN YOUR INIQUITY.

    Clearly, the subject of the next verse explains HOW Israel is supposed to RETURN to Hashem so that OUR INIQUITIES WILL BE FORGIVEN. Of course, the next verse explains just that!

    Hosea 14:3 Take WORDS with yourselves and RETURN TO THE LORD. Say, “YOU SHALL FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY and teach us [the] good [way], and let us render [for] bulls [the offering of] our lips.

    Even though we have stumbled in our iniquity and have been put into exile, we still have a means of returning to Hashem though our sincere PRAYERS. We take our words and return to Hashem by saying; “FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY.” Nothing in Hosea 14:2-3 indicates that we need the blood of animals in order to atone for our sins during the exile. And most importantly, NOTHING in Hosea 14:2-3 says we need the blood of jesus!

    This is why Daniel was able to stand righteous before Hashem, praying three times a day, despite the fact that he knew he would be thrown into a pit of lions if he continued to do so. Yet he continued to do so in the face of death! (Daniel 6:11)

    If the Jewish people did not need “jesus blood” to merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple during the first exile, then why would we need it now?!

    Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. It erroneously claims that “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.”

    Lets take a look at II Chronicles 30:16-20 where it is HEZEKIAH’S PRAYER and NOT BLOOD which ATONES for the sins of the people…

    II Chronicles 30:16. And they stood in their station as was their custom, according to the Torah of Moses, the man of God; the priests sprinkled the blood from the hand of the Levites.

    II Chronicles 30:17. For there were many among the congregation who had not consecrated themselves, and the Levites were in charge of the slaughter of the Passover sacrifices for everyone who was unclean, to make it holy for the Lord.

    II Chronicles 30:18. For a multitude of the people, many from Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun, had not purified themselves, for they ate the Passover sacrifice not as it is written, for **Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, **”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**

    II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”

    II Chronicles 30:20. **And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.**

    The Hebrew word יְכַפֵּר is used in verse 18. It means ATONE! Here we see that in the case of Hezekiah’s passover, many of his Israelite guests DID NOT cleanse themselves with BLOOD according to the Law of Moses. In order to ATONE for the sins of his people, King Hezekiah PRAYED TO HASHEM that he should grant ATONEMENT for all those in his Kingdom who truly turned their hearts to Hashem. 

Now, to further expand on this…In verse 16, it clearly states that the Levites were in charge of sprinkling BLOOD to purify Israel as it is stated in the Torah of Moses…Now, verses 17 and 18 say that there were many in Israel WHO DID NOT PURIFY THEMSELVES WITH THE **BLOOD** AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE TORAH! 

When someone disobeys a Law in the Torah, what do we call that? We call it a SIN! Here, there were individuals who SINNED by NOT being purified by the LEVITICAL PRIESTS OF THE HOLY TEMPLE with BLOOD! Now, according to Hebrews 9:22, the only way to ATONE FOR SIN is through BLOOD! But here, the sin that was committed was that they DIDN’T use blood for atonement…So how is this sin atoned for?

    According to Hebrew 9:22, it has to be blood! But is that how this sin was atoned for? NO! Their sins were atoned for in this manner:

    II Chronicles 30:18 **Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, **”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**

    II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”

    II Chronicles 30:20. **And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.**

    The sin of those not purified with the blood was atoned for through PRAYER!

 Thus, Hebrews 9:22 is an inaccurate statement…

    And if you are still skeptical about atonement without blood, The Hebrew word יִּרְפָּא is used in verse 20 for the word “healed.” The root of this word is רְפָּא which means heal. Amazingly, this same root is used in Isaiah 53:5
    Isaiah 53:5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were **HEALED.**

    The Hebrew word נִרְפָּא is used in verse Isaiah 53:5 for the word “healed.” This shares the SAME ROOT with יִּרְפָּא as shown above. In both cases, (Isaiah 53:5 and II Chronicles 30:20) a form of the word רְפָּא is used for the word “healed.”
    Clearly, there are circumstances in which atonement can be made through PRAYER, particularly when blood sacrifice is not immediately available…

    II Chronicles 33:9-13 demonstrates this same principle:

    II Chronicles 33:9-13: “And Manasseh led Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem astray to do what was evil, more than the nations whom the Lord had destroyed from before the Children of Israel. And the Lord spoke to Manasseh and to his people, but they did not listen. And the Lord brought upon them the generals of the king of Assyria, and they seized Manasseh with hooks and bound him with copper chains and brought him to Babylon. And when he was distressed, he entreated the Lord his God, and he humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers. And he PRAYED to Him, and He accepted his prayer, and He heard his supplication and He restored him to Jerusalem to his kingdom, and Manasseh knew that the Lord was God.”

    Here we see that Manasseh used PRAYER to receive forgiveness of his sins as well. We see that when blood sacrifice is not available, prayer is a valid method of atonement for sin. Also keep in mind that under Manasseh’s rule, the kingdom of Judah was more idolatrous than it had ever been in the past! Clearly, Manasseh’s prayer served as a means of forgiveness/atonement without blood sacrifice and most importantly, without jesus!

    Here we have a cause and effect: King Manasseh says a prayer asking for forgiveness and G-d accepts his prayer and restores him as King of Judah. No blood sacrifice was used to atone for King Manasseh as there is nothing in the text that would indicate such.

    This proves that Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. Blood sacrifice is not the only way to atone for sin. Your jesus has nothing to with our atonement.

    Shalom

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Hebrews 9:21-22
“Moreover, he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vesseles of ministry, and almost all things are BY THE LAW purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission”

To me, this seems not to be a brand new Christian theology of atonement, rather it is an faithful interpretation of the LAW because already Leviticus 17:11 says, “for it is the BLOOD that makes an atonement for the soul”

Of course, the blood itself on the door post has no power, it is just expression of courage, obedience, and faith in God (good reminder, thanks), but one of the reasons why Messianic gentiles believe the blood of the lamb has connection with the afflicted Messiah is based on Isaiah 53:7 “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth, he is brought as a LAMB to thr slaughter and as a SHEEP before her shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth”

I thank my fellow Jews who initiated to slaughter the lamb of God on the cross to make atonement for such a sinful gentile like me. You are truly Priest Nation. 

Q: Gean,

Leviticus 17:11 says, “for it is the BLOOD that makes an atonement for the soul”  Isaiah 53:7 “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth, he is brought as a LAMB to thr slaughter and as a SHEEP before her shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth” but one of the reasons why Messianic gentiles believe the blood of the lamb has connection with the afflicted Messiah is based on

…………….there is no blood atonement in is 53:7
oppression and affliction may cause feeling sorry for the persons, but open wounds and blood pouring out has no atonement in it. no ritual sacrifice in is 53

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Yes, there is no direct mention of “blood atonement” but i am wondering if anyone can say ISAIAH 53 has nothing to do with atonement and blood image:
5. ..He was wounded for our transgression, he was bruised for our iniquities…
6. … the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all…
8. …for the transgression of my people was he stricken…
10. …when thou shalt make his soul (life, blood) an OFFERING FOR SIN (antonement)
11. …. for he shall bear their iniquities
12. … He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressions.

Q: Gean,

The correct translation is “He was pained Because of our rebellious sins and oppressed Through Our iniquities”.

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Ok. Thank you.

Q: Gean,

“10. …when thou shalt make his soul (life, blood) an OFFERING FOR SIN (antonement)”

    • his death, blood, flesh and life is not a ritual sacrifice.
      the only thing verse 10 seems to be saying is that he risked his life , not that he died.
      “my soul is deeply troubled even unto death”
      no death here
      there are other ways to make soul offering for sin without dying

      quote:
      Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.

      Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

      But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.

      seems like the verse you quoted is linked back to the 3 verses i just quoted.

      other translations

      10And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God’s purpose shall prosper in his hand.

      he has to acknowledge his own sin . this translation gives the impression that the servant is a sinner. no animal type of offering can be derived from verse 10.

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      “the only thing verse 10 seems to be saying is that he risked his life, not that he died” ?

      Yes, “risking life” is in this verse but it says “though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering”! ‘guilt offering’ is not half dead or 99% dead, it is “Dead”! Doesn’t the context also say that? “for he was CUT OFF from the land of the LIVING”(v.8) ,
      “with the rich in his DEATH”(v.9)

      you said “he has to acknowledge his own sin” ??
      then how do you understand verse 11 “… by his knowledge my RIGHTEOUS servant will JUSTIFY many”?

      Q: Gean,

      you said, “Yes, “risking life” is in this verse but it says “though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering”! ‘guilt offering’ is not half dead or 99% dead, it is “Dead”!”
      ………………………………………………..
      you are viewing this in light animal sacrifices. you really think a human is a guilt offering? the text does not say that the death = atonement or that the soul /life/whatever died for atonement. it doesn’t even say it died.
      was jesus a sin offering or a guilt offering?

      “Doesn’t the context also say that? “for he was CUT OFF from the land of the LIVING”(v.8) ,”

      assuming “cut off ” means “death” where does it say that its death = atonement for sins? where does it say that it’s death saves/atones?

      “with the rich in his DEATH”(v.9)

      NOTHING about atonement

      …………………………
      you said “he has to acknowledge his own sin” ??
      then how do you understand verse 11 “… by his knowledge my RIGHTEOUS servant will JUSTIFY many”?
      …………………………………………………..
      how come it doesn’t say that the DEATH /offering will justify many?
      why is it knowledge which will save ? why did you capitalize “righteous” ? don’t you know that even righteous noah, daniel and job sinned according to christianity?

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      Yes, the text does not literally say, “his death will atone,” But the natural reading of the chapter leads me that way, i am sorry I can’t deny. However, I understand ‘the atonement through human death
      ‘makes no sense to Judaism. How can a dead man save anybody? I see your frustration.

      But the Biblical and original Christianity does not teach that way. Atonement should be differentiated from salvation. Atonement, as you know, is to come nearer to God, to gain access to the presence of God. So Hebrews 10:19-20″Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jeshua, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body”

      I understand the salvation is eternal life, and Jeshua defined in John 17:3″ Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the ONE true God and Jeshua Messiah, whom you have sent.” So, i understand that salvation is to have holy and intimate fellowship with HaShem and the Messiah forever.

      I think Christianity might have impressed unfortunately that the crucifixion itself saves people, but it is not what the New Testament teaches. His death atones and reconciles sinners, and His resurrection saves and justifies by indwelling of His righteous and holy Spirit in us.

      Romans 4:25″He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.”
      Romans 5:10 ” for if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His LIFE!”

      Salvation does not come by watching and believing crucifixion, rather by living relationship with HaShem and actions with faith in what HaShem has done through Israel, the first born son of God, and Jeshua, the first born Son of God.

      Q: Gean,
      The image of a lamb doesn’t really fit with a messiah. The image is more reflective of the holocaust. What you are reading is a history of the Jewish nation.

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      Yes, you are right. The Messiah should be as Davidic figure who is a king and warrior. Isaiah 53 seems unfit to that. However, The crucifixion is the Messiah’s humbleness and emptying of his power. We see the same character in David’s life.

      New Testament reports that Jeshua actually had the power and authority but he did not use it for the purpose of atoning task on the cross.

      Examples: when Peter struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear , Jeshua said,”Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?” (MT 26:53)

      When the people looked for Jeshua to seize on the Mt. OLIVES, Jeshua asked, “who is it you want?” They replied “Jesus of Nazareth” At the word of Jeshua saying “I AM HE!” They drew back and fell to the ground. (JOHN 18:6) — you remember the SAME thing happened in 1 Samuel 14:13 , right? “Jonathan climbed up, using his hands and feet, with his armor-bearer right behind him. The Philistines fell before Jonathan, and his armor bearer followed and killed behind him.”

      Luke 4:17 reports that Jeshua preached in the synagogue in his home town Nazareth, quoting Isaiah 61:1-2, and he stopped at “to proclaim the year of the Lord’s FAVOR.” and he rolled up the scroll. Why did he omit the next sentence, “and the day of VENGEANCE of our God.”? Because he would fulfill the prophecy of atonement through His death. Then when He will fulfill the Vengeance part? On His second coming! The Revelations 19 prophesy that Jeshua the Messiah will come again as the conquering King, the Lion of Judah and execute the judgement upon all the enemies of God’s people!

      Q: Gean
      To suggest humbleness because of a crucifixion is nothing but a ‘throw out there’ statement. It has no basis in reality. Xtian will say literally anything to make Isaiah 53 work for them. No matter what, the context just doesn’t support the case.

      Q: Gean,
      “Atonement should be differentiated from salvation. Atonement, as you know, is to come nearer to God, to gain access to the presence of God. So Hebrews 10:19-20″Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jeshua, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body”

      why does anybody need jesus’ blood before one speak to god? why need blood from anything? christians say people are going to be burned in hell . shall i watch burning ritual and use it to speak to god? is there a time when no shedding of blood is required and forgiveness is pure and free of blood?

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      Thank you for your reply. I hope there is an open door for us to speak directly to God but unfortunately since Adam sinned and hid himself from God while God searched for him, there has been wall- flaming sword (Gen.3:24) between G_d and us.

      Why HaShem warned and put limits between Him and the Israelites in the Mt. Sinai? Why He required the priests who approached the Lord to consecrate themselves? (Exodus19:21-25) Let us not forget this happened even before the Law was given!

      “But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear”(Isa.59:2-3) My personal life proves this. No one accused me of my secret sins, nevertheless I did not search for God, I did not want to call Him. I know it is because of the sin in me.

      Yes, God can speak to people without requiring blood atonement, actually I think He always does so because He always wants to have relationship with us. But the problem is WE who do not want to come to the Light and talk to Him because we want not our darkness to be disclosed.

      We want to assure that our sins are forgiven but self-assurance cannot make us believe that we are truly forgiven. There is always doubt in us.

      Let’s say, one day a criminal who has been sentenced to death set free and discharged from the prison and sent immediately back to home. Would he enjoy the new life?
      Maybe not. He would search for the evidence or documents that legally prove the dismissal of his case!

      From the infinite mercy and love of our G_D, He provided the “once and for all” legal document sealed with the blood of the Son of G_D so that anybody could come to Him with confidence. G_D INVITES, not require to the table of the atonement so that we enjoy abundant life with Him.

      Q: Gean,

      “Thank you for your reply. I hope there is an open door for us to speak directly to God but unfortunately since Adam sinned and hid himself from God while God searched for him, there has been wall- flaming sword (Gen.3:24) between G_d and us.”

      but i don’t think there is a flaming sword between god and sincerely repentant who sincerely seeks god. if god hears and sees and is close then jesus becomes redundant.

      “Why HaShem warned and put limits between Him and the Israelites in the Mt. Sinai? Why He required the priests who approached the Lord to consecrate themselves? (Exodus19:21-25) Let us not forget this happened even before the Law was given!”

      but i don’t think one require intermediaries to speak to god. if god hears and sees and is kind , then he does not require human blood before he can answer.

      ““But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear”(Isa.59:2-3) My personal life proves this. No one accused me of my secret sins, nevertheless I did not search for God, I did not want to call Him. I know it is because of the sin in me.”

      your personal life does not prove to me that blood is required before god speaks to anyone.

      “Yes, God can speak to people without requiring blood atonement, actually I think He always does so because He always wants to have relationship with us. But the problem is WE who do not want to come to the Light and talk to Him because we want not our darkness to be disclosed.”

      but i do want to talk to the creator and i don’t think a human sacrficial ritual is required before i talk to him. how close or intimate is conversation with god if one has to think of ritual human sacrifice?

      “From the infinite mercy and love of our G_D, He provided the “once and for all” legal document sealed with the blood of the Son of G_D so that anybody could come to Him with confidence.”

      infinite mercy and love of god ? god couldn’t escape from sacrificing himself so where is infinite mercy and love?
      does mercy and love really require a god to come down and do ritual animal sacrifice to himself? if yes, then doesn’t love mean that it is dependant on ritual killing?
      tell me why are sincerely penitent heart cannot speak to god and if god is infinite in mercy and love he can’t answer without ritual killing?
      how close is your relationship with god if one always has to go through “sealed blood document” ? why not god see his own bloodless mercy ?

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      I agree with you that sincerely penitent heart can speak to God and there are cases when God forgave the penitent heart without blood atonement. BUT penitence is enough for us and for God? Would you forgive the IS terrorists and criminals who are responsible for Holocaust when they truly cry and repent? There might be some who ran away from prosecution and enjoyed the rest of their lives and died. Where is the vengence? Where is the justice of God? Brother… Hell is needed!!

      To me it is not psychological, emotional and verbal penitence that renew our heart, it is “paying the price” that really set us free from the bondage. God wants to pay the price to be JUST God and FAITHFUL to keep His words.

      1. “For when you eat of it you will SURELY die” Gen.2:17 Adam died because he did not truly repent?
      2. The Law reveals the justice of God. Repentance is just a small part of qualifications to be forgiven. Isn’t the “Paying the price” the pervasive idea in all the law? LEVITICUS 17:11 “it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life”
      Let us look carefully how the Law says “it is the BLOOD (NOT animal blood) that atones”
      3.Although David poured out his heart, truly repent, fast all day lying on the ground, he had to pay the price; God struck his new born son.(2Sam.12)

      Q: Gean Guk Jeon

      So you think God was making a joke in Ezekiel 33? -and would you be happy if an Isis terrorist or Hitler got away with killing a lamb?

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      I like your passion for the word of God. I hope to learn from you and find the Truth together through our conversations.

      I dont think God was joking. I think you are right in Ezekiel 33 God saves those who repent and do righteousness without blood atonement. But I also think we need to look through briefly the whole Tanakh how God revealed the way of life and salvation.

      In the Garden of Eden, not to eat of the tree of good and evil was the way of life.
      To Cain, to receive the mark from the Lord was the way of life.
      To Noah, to build an ark and enter it was the way of salvation.
      To Lot, to get out of Solomon was the way.
      To Moses who was at a lodging place on the way to Egypt, Zipporah’s cutting off her son’s foreskin and touch Moses’ feet.
      To Hebrews in Egypt, to put the blood of the lamb on the doorpost.
      When got snake bites in the wilderness, to look at the bronze snake on a pole.
      In the land of Israel, to listen and obey the Word of HaShem.
      In the tims of prophets like Ezekiel 33, social justice and obedience to the law.
      In Malachi, bringing the whole tithes and the prophet Elijah turning the hearts of fathers to children and children to fathers.

      God spoke in different manners in different times. We can’t impose Ezekiel 33 as one way of salvation upon all the biblical history. We must hear up to date voice of the Lord.

      Hebrews 1: 1 ” In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whGean Guk Jeon

      Q: Gean,

      There was always one way and that is obedience – to God, not to anyone elseom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe”

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      Amen to that! If I lived in Israel 570 B.C.E. I would listen and obey the Word of God through prophet Jeremiah. If I lived in Israel 30 C.E. I would obey the Word of God through Jeshua, Now I do my best to obey the Revelation of God through 66 books of the Bible. That is why John 1:14 says, “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us…”

      Q: Gean,

      you wrote, “God spoke in different manners in different times. We can’t impose Ezekiel 33 as one way of salvation upon all the biblical history. We must hear up to date voice of the Lord.”

      At this point, 2000 years ago is not very much more up to date than 2500 years ago and so on.

      The first few examples you give are not relevant because they apply to individuals or to a specific national crisis. The last three examples are more general and they apply as much today as they did then. It’s obvious this is so when you read all the examples in context.

      Search the Hebrew Bible and see how many times the phrase “eternal covenant” appears in conjunction with a particular commandment. I think you will find this exercise instructive.

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      Thanks for the comment. When I said, “Up to date” i meant “contemporary” Whatever God says in particular times and places, we must obey.

      I believe that the Old Covenant with Israel is still valid as the New Covenant with church. Yes, since God is eternal and foresees from the beginning into eternity, His words and covenants are eternal.

      Do you mean, because He makes “eternal covenant,” His rule of salvation is eternally same in all the ages and places?

      Q: Hi Gean,

      I’m not sure I understand your question, but I will try to clarify. If God commands something and says it is eternally binding, then what other language would you want God to employ to be more clear? God disagrees with you that His commandments apply only in certain times and places.

      Here’s a relevant example, since we’re in the midst of celebrating Passover. God commands the Jews to keep this holiday, to eat matzos, and not to eat leavened bread. In this passage from Exodus 12:14-20, God uses the terms “eternal decree” twice, “for your generations” once, and “that soul shall be cut off from Israel [regarding one who eats leavened bread]” twice.

      In the passage in Exodus 13:3-10, the term “from year to year” is not given an expiration date.

      God could not be more clear that He expects us to observe Passover every year, forever, eating matzos and refraining from eating leavened bread.

      The clear teachings of the Torah are eternal and apply to every time and place that we find ourselves in.

      I hope this helps!

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      Shalom sister,  Sorry for the late response. Your argument really helped my understanding of the concept of “eternal covenant.” I put my new thought and discovery about this issue on my blog because it is too long to post here. I humbly invite you to see it on my blog.
      The title is “The progressive revelation of passover” under the category of “the mysteries of Israel in the Bible” you are more than welcomed to comment. Thanks.

      Q:Hi Gean,

      I limit myself to one blog of this sort because of my time constraints. May I trouble you to summarize your main points here?

      In the meantime, I must reiterate that the word “eternal” as in “eternal covenant” and “eternal decree” means just that. God could not be more clear. He also made it clear that He does not change His mind regarding His promises (Numbers 23:19).

      I would encourage you as well to study Deuteronomy 4 and 13, which teach, respectively, that we must never associate God with a physical form and that if a prophet produces a sign and then teaches a new type of worship unknown to our fathers, then we must reject him as utterly false.

      Christians associate God with a physical form, Jesus. Furthermore, Jesus taught a new type of worship that was unknown to our fathers. What more need be said?

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      Jeremiah 14:20ff says,” O Lord, we acknowledge our wickedness and the guilt of our fathers; we have indeed sinned against you… Remember your Covenant with us and do not break it…”
      15:1 ” Then the Lord said to me.
      “Even if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me, my heart would not go out to this people…”

      I am a type of PROPHET Jonah. I can’t understand why God forgave such a wicked nation as Assyria when they repent? The penalty of cruel peeling off human skins for long years just vanish away when they repent?

      I would not believe or follow the unjust God of Israel unless HE said ” I poured out THE wrath upon my Son on the cross.”

      Q: Gean Guk Jeon

      Jonah KNEW that God is a merciful God and that he will forgive

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      Yes, you’re right. He knew that. But the question is why he would rather die than go to Nineveh? What do you think?

      God could have raised up a Gentile spiritist or religious priest to declare the simple message- “Nineveh will fall down in 40 days” and make the citizens repent and be saved from the calamity. Nothing is impossible with our HaShem!! Amen?

      But why God had to send him and to put him physically there and to make him walk and preach the message? I think because God knew that the citizens would not repent if they hear from a fellow citizen however serious, religious or passionate he was.

      God had to send His servant from far away, who has blazing eyes, blunt face, and serious voice, like a man who came back to life from dead and tell the truth at the expense of his life. Actually Jonah was such a man. So was Jeshua.

      In The book of Jonah, we see God continued to try to kill his servant physically, emotionally, and logically (by sending storm, being thrown into the water, making him preach the provocative message in the dangerous land, sending worm which chew the vine over his head, sending scorching east wind with sun blazing, and talking to him like the God of Israel is on the side of enemy of Israel) in order to save many lives.

      It was the Lord’s will to crush His Son and cause him to suffer to save you and me.

      Crucifixion is not a separate program of atonement apart from repentance. Crucifixion is God running into our Nineveh to MAKE us repent and come back to Him!

      Q: Gean,

      “In The book of Jonah, we see God continued to try to kill his servant physically, emotionally, and logically (by sending storm, being thrown into the water, making him preach the provocative message in the dangerous land, sending worm which chew the vine over his head, sending scorching east wind with sun blazing, and talking to him like the God of Israel is on the side of enemy of Israel) in order to save many lives.”

      did jonah say that one comes to god through the suffering of jonah? did jonah focus attention on himself/did god?

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      Good question. The text doesn’t say that one comes to God through the suffering of Jonah. Neither it says that one comes to God regardless of the suffering of Jonah. We do know that the repentance from iniquities is not free. Somebody has to go and cost time, energy, even life to tell the truth and the coming judgement of God. Ask Moses, ask Jonah, ask Jeremiah, and ask Jeshua.

      Q: Gean,

      “Crucifixion is not a separate program of atonement apart from repentance. Crucifixion is God running into our Nineveh to MAKE us repent and come back to Him!”

      but you tell yourself that your god saved himself and his now enjoying heavenly rewards and is living a peaceful life. doesn’t that effect your repentance? don’t christians after their repentance celebrate in church the resurrection of their god ?
      its like you have to beat up jesus in your mind, then tell yourself he has fully recovered from the beating and then celebrate his recovery . what is the point of this?
      since none of the beating changes a christians sinful nature, why not ask god to forgive without jesus?

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      Sorry for the late response. I hope you had a wonderful Passover. Your words really make me reexamine my spiritual life. Frankly, you are right. i am, as a Messianic gentile, confused whenever i face passover week because there are totally different moods within the week. For example, i force myself to focus on repentance from my sins as i approach the day of Crucifixion, (pre-rejoicing of the resurrection during the suffering week make me feel guilty ^^) and encourage myself to create a joy in me of the resurrection after the Good Friday although there is not much to rejoice in my life circumstance. This is a little awkward practice of my faith every year.

      I have a question. In Deuteronomy 16, there are specific commandments in each feasts: Passover, Festival of Weeks, and Festival of Tabernacles.
      God commands “rejoicing” in the festivals except the Passover. During Passover, God commands “eating the bread of affliction (bitter herb? i don’t know)” Seems to me that the Passover is for remembering affliction? but my question is this; “Isn’t that a season of great joy when Hashem liberated Israelites from slavery? then, why eating bread of affliction?”

      Secondly, 2 Chronicles 30:13-27 tells us that they celebrated the Passover with great joy! and they agreed to extend 7 more days! Praise Adonai Eloheinu! Even though the observing the Passover did not start smoothly at first, God healed and they could not calm down their excitement. I love this… So question is “during the Passover, aren’t they also breaking the law by uncleanness of some tribes, repentance and bitterness and joy mixed together?” I don’t know i just see similarity between this joyful awkwardness of these two group of people^^

      Q: Gean Guk Jones

      Excellent question, All of the holidays are times of joy – the bread of poverty reminds us of the suffering we were saved from – and it also reminds us of the poverty of all creation before the Creator which is joy – not sadness. Joy is recognizing His love and our poverty

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      O.K. thanks for the explanation. i just wondered why then God omit saying “rejoice” in passover, wheras He mentioned in the other feasts.
      Q: Gean,
       In Deuteronomy 15:14 it says “rejoice in your “chag” – the word “chag” is a word used to describe all three holidays

      Q: Gean Guk Jeon,

      Lets take a closer look at II Chronicles 30:16-20 where it is HEZEKIAH’S PRAYER and NOT BLOOD which ATONES for the sins of the people…

      II Chronicles 30:16. And they stood in their station as was their custom, according to the Torah of Moses, the man of God; the priests sprinkled the blood from the hand of the Levites.

      II Chronicles 30:17. For there were many among the congregation who had not consecrated themselves, and the Levites were in charge of the slaughter of the Passover sacrifices for everyone who was unclean, to make it holy for the Lord.

      II Chronicles 30:18. For a multitude of the people, many from Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun, had not purified themselves, for they ate the Passover sacrifice not as it is written, for **Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, **”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**

      II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”

      II Chronicles 30:20. **And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.**

      The Hebrew word יְכַפֵּר is used in verse 18. It means ATONE! Here we see that in the case of Hezekiah’s passover, many of his Israelite guests DID NOT cleanse themselves with BLOOD according to the Law of Moses. In order to ATONE for the sins of his people, King Hezekiah PRAYED TO HASHEM that he should grant ATONEMENT for all those in his Kingdom who truly turned their hearts to Hashem. 

Now, to further expand on this…In verse 16, it clearly states that the Levites were in charge of sprinkling BLOOD to purify Israel as it is stated in the Torah of Moses…Now, verses 17 and 18 say that there were many in Israel WHO DID NOT PURIFY THEMSELVES WITH THE **BLOOD** AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE TORAH! 

When someone disobeys a Law in the Torah, what do we call that? We call it a SIN! Here, there were individuals who SINNED by NOT being purified by the LEVITICAL PRIESTS OF THE HOLY TEMPLE with BLOOD! Now, according to Hebrews 9:22, the only way to ATONE FOR SIN is through BLOOD! But here, the sin that was committed was that they DIDN’T use blood for atonement…So how is this sin atoned for?

      According to Hebrew 9:22, it has to be blood! But is that how this sin was atoned for? NO! Their sins were atoned for in this manner:

      II Chronicles 30:18 **Hezekiah had PRAYED**for them, saying, **”MAY THE GOOD LORD ATONE FOR**

      II Chronicles 30:19. anyone who has set his whole heart to seek God, the Lord, the God of his forefathers, though [he be] not [cleaned] according to the purity that pertains the holy things.”

      II Chronicles 30:20. **And THE LORD HEARKENED TO HEZEKIAH and HEALED the people.**

      The sin of those not purified with the blood was atoned for through PRAYER!

 Thus, Hebrews 9:22 is an inaccurate statement…

      And if you are still skeptical about atonement without blood, The Hebrew word יִּרְפָּא is used in verse 20 for the word “healed.” The root of this word is רְפָּא which means heal. Amazingly, this same root is used in Isaiah 53:5
      Isaiah 53:5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were **HEALED.**

      The Hebrew word נִרְפָּא is used in verse Isaiah 53:5 for the word “healed.” This shares the SAME ROOT with יִּרְפָּא as shown above. In both cases, (Isaiah 53:5 and II Chronicles 30:20) a form of the word רְפָּא is used for the word “healed.”
      Clearly, there are circumstances in which atonement can be made through PRAYER, particularly when blood sacrifice is not immediately available…

      II Chronicles 33:9-13 demonstrates this same principle:

      II Chronicles 33:9-13: “And Manasseh led Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem astray to do what was evil, more than the nations whom the Lord had destroyed from before the Children of Israel. And the Lord spoke to Manasseh and to his people, but they did not listen. And the Lord brought upon them the generals of the king of Assyria, and they seized Manasseh with hooks and bound him with copper chains and brought him to Babylon. And when he was distressed, he entreated the Lord his God, and he humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers. And he PRAYED to Him, and He accepted his prayer, and He heard his supplication and He restored him to Jerusalem to his kingdom, and Manasseh knew that the Lord was God.”

      Here we see that Manasseh used PRAYER to receive forgiveness of his sins as well. We see that when blood sacrifice is not available, prayer is a valid method of atonement for sin. Also keep in mind that under Manasseh’s rule, the kingdom of Judah was more idolatrous than it had ever been in the past! Clearly, Manasseh’s prayer served as a means of forgiveness/atonement without blood sacrifice and most importantly, without jesus!

      Here we have a cause and effect: King Manasseh says a prayer asking for forgiveness and G-d accepts his prayer and restores him as King of Judah. No blood sacrifice was used to atone for King Manasseh as there is nothing in the text that would indicate such.

      This proves that Hebrews 9:22 is a false statement. Blood sacrifice is not the only way to atone for sin. Your jesus has nothing to with our atonement.

      Shalom

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      Nice to meet you Yehuda. Thank your for your comment. i see your point and i agree God atones without blood sacrifice. And i want to add, “God also atones with blood” because the Law says so! Leviticus 17:11 !!

      This is my understanding of Hebrews 9:22, “In fact, the Law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood AND without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” This verse is not talking about Christian doctrine of atonement through blood. This is a statement of observation of what the Leviticus 17:11 says within the scope of the whole Torah.

      Let me rephrase it; “NEALY everything is atoned by blood according to the LAW AND there is nearly no forgiveness without the shedding of the blood according to the law ” that is what it says.

      i think you brought good textual supports. Atonement or forgiveness through prayers of two KINGS. Yes, i agree. i want you to know that crucifixion is not all about shedding blood. it is also about shedding water, shedding sweat, bruise, piercing, hanging, woundeness, chastisement, mockering, shame, condemnation… and PRAYER!

      On the cross, Jeshua prayed, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” Luke 23:34

      God forgives and atones through blood according to the Law.
      God heals through his wound according to Isaiah 53.
      God forgives through proclamation of the coming judgment according to Jonah.
      God forgives through prayer according to Hezekiah and Mannasseh.

      Jeshua did all of them on the crucifixion. (Jeshua’s proclamation of coming disaster is found in Luke 23:30).

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