Q: When Jesus broke the Shabbat in Matthew 12, his logic is like the speedy driver in this parable.
A man was on his way to watch a football game at his friend’s house. Eager to arrive, he found himself doing 60 mph in a 35 mph zone. Shortly, a police officer pulled him over.“Do you realize that you were speeding?” the police officer asked. Incensed the man began railing at the officer:
“Have you not heard how a husband sometimes rushes his pregnant wife as she goes into labor? Or are you so ignorant that you do not know that a fire truck breaks the speed limit and its driver receives no ticket? I tell you that I am greater than the fire chief! But if you had known that a warning is preferable to a ticket, you would not have harassed an innocent man. For I am lord of the roads!”
As the man was arrested, one could hear him shouting: “Speed limits were made for man, not man for speed limits!”
Shalom, You compared Yeshua to the speeder who violated the traffic law, but I see it differently. Please look carefully how the text says; it was His disciples who broke the law, not Yeshua! Matthew 12:1-8 “At that time Yeshua went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. HIS DISCIPLES were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! YOUR DISCIPLES are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath…. ”
You are right, sister, and i think ‘the fool'(v.1) and ‘sons of men'(v.2) makes “all (ha col)… together (Yahedu)”(v.3)? In verse 5 says not “there are righteous people by action worthy of salvation” rather they are saved and righteous because of The Presence and of the Lord with them and being refuge for them. How come? In what way? verse 7 answers that.
Q: Gean
Exodus 33.”He said: “I will let all My goodness pass before you; I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you, and I will favor when I wish to favor, and I will have compassion when I wish to have compassion”.
I wonder, which is the correct reading of 33:19? Is it Who i wish to favor or When I wish to favor ?? Who would match Paul in the NT. It changes the whole meaning.
Q: Gean,
Really, though, who says the salvation is a spiritual salvation? Salvation in the Torah refers to political salvation, salvation from oppression, persecution, and the like.
The concept of God saving us from our own sins without us having to do a thing about it does not exist anywhere in Tanach.
Amen! NT says same thing! The concept has not changed! Salvation is to be with God eternally from the seperation by sin, to inherit the eternal kingdom of God that is Jerusalem, and to become His children forever
Q: Gean,
I do not think you understood what I said at all.
Jerusalem.., i meant the city where i am living now in Israel. Salvation from slavery, persecution, death, disease, oppression from wicked government are partially realized and fulfilled by the people of God and will ultimately fully fulfilled by Messiah’s coming. He will establish the righteous and holy city of God on earth, thus restore the garden of Eden. This is how i understand from both OT and NT.
Q: Gean,
““The salvation of God is not governed by our action; rather He saves and heals whomever He chooses to be with.” So how does God make that choice? Is it made before you are born? If so, then what criteria is used to condemn a person who God chose not to enlighten and “be with” before their birth?
Brother, thank you for the comment and forgive me for the late response. please read Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:19-29. I believe that will answer to you
Q: Gean,
Exodus 33:19 In context: 18Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!” 19And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.” 20But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”…
This doesn’t help your argument for Calvinism, predestination or for Jesus as God for that matter. But if it does, there is no reason for you to even be posting here, since God has already made his decision about every single person before they were even born. You say our choices make no difference because our choices are not even our choices. The evil man was created to be evil and the good man was created to be good. You believe those who “reject christ” were predestined to do so. In your thinking , it is God’s will that the vast majority of humanity “reject christ”. You would only have to post once, proclaiming the 2nd person of the trinity and the third person of the trinity would take over from there with “irresistible grace” to those predestined to accept your religion. No further discussion would be needed.
Your continual posting on these boards is evidence that you do not even believe that argument yourself. Remember, Jesus said ( paraphrase), “tell them, and if they do not accept it, shake the dust from your sandals.” He did not say, ” Keep debating them until they see it your way”.
As for your Pauline verse from Romans, it is irrelevant.
Q: Gean,
I think that the calvinistic god is an awful god, but most ignore the fact that many non-testament verses teaches exactly that! You can’t barely make it more clear than “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. “, but like most christians, they try to rationalise, because the god of the non-testament is a cruel god who enjoy sending people to hell, just for his own pleasure of showing his own wrath!
I don’t care what theologians say, but i do care what the Bible says. Why the nation Israel was chosen among nations? Because He loved and chose them! (Deuteronomy 7:6-9) What i wanted to say is not that we can do whatever we want to do because salvatoin is gained already. The NT also refutes that mentality- Philippians 2:12 says, “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” What i meant was that Salvation of God is not GOVERNED by our action. When the saved people of God stand before Him in the last day, they will know and worship Him because their faith, their works, their righteousness, and their fruits all came from gifts from God. So the Hesed love in His covenant is what saves us. In terms of salvation, God takes all the soverignty- 1 Samuel 17:47, Psalm 3:8, Revelations 7:10
I also think that the calvinistic god is an awful god. I think the God of Israel, the God of the Bible is an awsome God whose love is infinite!
Q: Gene Buk Geon
“What i meant was that Salvation of God is not GOVERNED by our action”
Dina dealt with that when she joined the conversation. Your response “But, if the salvation of God is governed by our action and by what we have accomplished by obeying it, then… so many Jews and Chrisitans in the Old and New covenant may lose the salvation because they sometimes fail to observe it.” You continue, “I don’t mean we can ignore the law; rather we should strive to keep it, to keep the spirit and heart of God manifested in the Law; however, our keeping the law cannot be the basis of our salvation.” First you say, we cannot ignore the law, Then you say we can, just by keeping the spirit of the law, followed by keeping the law cannot be the basis for our salvation, translation, it’s not that important. By the way Gene, what part of the law do you keep?
I honor and listen and try to keep all the commandments not to be saved but because i am saved. When i find myself failing to observe all those (613?) commandments, i realize i am a sinner who needs mercy of God. i believe i am saved by what God has done in the history of Israel and in the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua.